Prowler/Intruder Dual Gen failure on takeoff

[Dawgfan]

It's one of our high-speed abort criteria per SOP, but everyone you talk to has a different take on it...

"I'd definitely take it flying, you don't want to stop a 56k Prowler with 4k of runway left..." (No SNAP, though..)

"I'd abort... flaps are blowing back, the IPI is going to barberpole and you are going to have other indications (eroneous) that meet other high-speed abort criteria..."

Your thoughts?

 

[Punk]

this is all so simple really


EJECT

 

[A4sForever]

High speed aborts are bad news --- few things more scary. Know what your limits/criterion are before you get there. You guys still plan/compute a "line-speed" check, don't you??

If stopping is in doubt --- GO FLY -- assuming WX is not a factor. Turn downwind, (go dump?) and land. Remember, the a/c can land just as heavy as it took off --- you just can't PRANG it on a'la carrier landing --- flare it/grease it on.

If you have the requisite runway remaining --- Power to idle, boards out, max brakes on ... long-field gear ??? You still have the hook. I've used it at the field more than once.

If all else fails, you still have the seat ... Of course, with this option --- you have just "purchased" the airplane.

Or ... Has all of this changed changed??

 

[Brett327]

High speed aborts are bad news --- few things more scary. Know what your limits/criterion are before you get there. You guys still plan/compute a "line-speed" check, don't you??

If stopping is in doubt --- GO FLY -- assuming WX is not a factor. Turn downwind, (go dump?) and land. Remember, the a/c can land just as heavy as it took off --- you just can't PRANG it on a'la carrier landing --- flare it/grease it on.

If you have the requisite runway remaining --- Power to idle, boards out, max brakes on ... long-field gear ??? You still have the hook. I've used it at the field more than once.

If all else fails, you still have the seat ...

Or ... Has all of this changed changed??

Yeah, same same today. All depends on where you are and what the situation is. My personal view is that if the prospect of stopping with the remaining runway is in doubt, at least if you get airborne, you can pull the RAT and try to reset the generators. Even if you're still without electrical power, there are worse things than an electrical failure and a barberpoled IPI. With all that gas, you'll have plenty of time to troubleshoot

Brett

 

[A4sForever]

.....the RAT and try to reset the generators ...
Brett

It used to be an automatic (?) EJECT-NATOPS procedure @ night @ the ship.

I took a night cat shot -- kinda heavy -- and had a dual GEN failure immediately after becoming airborne. NATOPS at that time called for an ejection. I thought we would die at night in front of the ship with that procedure --- soooooo .... my B/N and I decided we would go for the RAT -- one try -- and then go with the E-handle. He did not think much of our nightime chances in front of 70,000 tons bearing down @ 30 knots, either -- ditto most of the squadron.

I kept the stick center/little back pressure -- hit EMERG JETT button -- and made my play for the RAT -- got it (one chance, we agreed -- had a "slight" visible horizon for wings level/nose attitude this time) and got the standby gyro/some interior lights back right away. We got one GEN reset (#2 wouldn't) and started hollering on the radio -- got a long downwind, dumping all the way, and called the ball. Sweating like two pigs, but still alive and lovin' it !! I think if we had punched, we would have died.

After that little drill, the squadron started experimenting with ALL night CATS taken with the RAT out (?) -- our innovative safety officer -- until someone forgot to stow it and it ate itself. So much for that idea ...

 

[SteveG75]

The problem is recognizing it as a Dual Gen Failure.

Remember, no gens = no warning and caution lights. With the battery backup for EFIS, the pilot won't get an immediate blank screen staring him in the face. All your pitot static will still be working. Obviously, at night, you will lose the cockpit lighting.

Now, what most pilots will see is the IPI barberpole and abort for "more than a momentary flicker of the IPI". Now, as soon as the throttles come back, you are ABORTING. No second guessing like the Hornet bubba who could not make up his mind and ran out of runway.

So, if you recognize it as a dual gen, you could go flying and pull the RAT. But, you are most likely to recognize it as a dual gen at night, when you may not want to go flying. God, I love this job.

BTW, as an ECMO, my take on pilots is from being a RAG instructor and doing many EP sims at the console. :icon_wink

Now, my favorite way to introduce students to the high speed abort in the sim was the old "Failure to Rotate". I can think of two separate stab disconnect in the community and all I did to simulate this was put a stab stall in the sim after the pilot's wipeout (I know, unrealistic but had the desired effect). You should heard some of their comments when the jet (sim) fails to rotate and they are doing 150+ KIAS 4500' down the runway. And, being the evil bastard that I am, they would invariably hookskip the longfield gear.

No, I never busted anyone on it but my point was to illustrate that a HIGH SPEED ABORT is a serious emergency in it's own right and that is why we only abort high speed for a limited criteria.

 

[A4sForever]

...I can think of two separate stab disconnect in the community

Steve/Meat:
Was one VA-196 @ the ship???

 

[SteveG75]

Steve/Meat:
Was one VA-196 @ the ship???

I believe the VA-196 crash off the cat that you see on Discovery was an engine failure.

I know I heard about an A-6E that had a stab go full leading edge down on takeoff resulting in a stall (early '70's ??) and I believe there was a Prowler that had one go full leading edge up (much better when on the runway).

Edit: Just looked the losses appendix in Mark and Rick Morgan's excellent book, Intruder, The Operational History of Grumman's A-6.

156999, A-6A, VA-95, 20 Nov 74, Whidbey Island: Aborted takeoff into water due to missing bolt on stabilizer. 2 Fatal.

There may have been others, just referenced as loss of control. I did find two instances of VDI's coming loose on cat shots and jamming the stick full aft, both VA-75.

 

[A4sForever]

The problem is recognizing it as a Dual Gen Failure ...... With the battery backup for EFIS, the pilot won't get an immediate blank screen staring him in the face ......

No problem-O in the A-6A ... no lights .... completely dark .... platform tumble .... EFIS would not be designed/installed in the airplane for a few years .... B/N with flashlight best/quickest illumination source .....:icon_wink

It's been said before, but NEVER, EVER fly the "A" model of anything, if you have any choices.