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Promotion in the IRR

subreservist

Well-Known Member
6)I'm kinda in the Air Force Staff College One right now...I only did the introduction. Not sure if they've dis enrolled me yet or not. I can say with reasonable certainty that I'll be doing JPME through the War College. I do know people who have promoted in the IRR. I'm an O-4 already, with my first look at O-5 in March...I have excellent FITREPs, an MBA but no JPME. We'll see. Chances are slim, but not zero.

Hi folks...recently signed up to the site...I've actually benefitted from various pieces of info from this board and hope to contribute. I'm currently O4 1125 SELRES (returning after a break in service from active), but I can understand you guys IRR pains...

I'm interested if you have info on the IRR folks who promoted...did they promote to O5?? As you stated, I figure the odds are slim to promote but trying to see if there is any logic that can used, i.e if they were recent switches to IRR, in which case they might have FITREPS no greater than 1-3 yrs old or if they were IRR the whole time they were O4? I figure the FITREP or lack of a recent one is what determines the chance to promote...O4 is a little easier to promote from IRR, as the quota numbers are higher on average (last board promoted 90% from URL, of course you have to account for NPC fuzzy math).
 

Sam I am

Average looking, not a farmer.
pilot
Contributor
Yes...Couldn't say for sure regarding logic, but I know lack of a current FITREP hurts...mine is from this FY 13 for the FY 14 board. I'll write a letter to the board explaining the break in service to pursue JPME and hope for the best. I'm not holding my breath. It'll be a long shot. The people I know who made promotion in the IRR were almost all O-4 promotes. I "heard" about one guy who made O-6, but I don't personally know anyone who made O-6 in the IRR.
 
I was a recorder on an O-5 board several years ago, and I remember a guy with a great record who gone IRR right before the board. The members pushed for him, but the admiral said "sorry, Active Status Pool can't promote". Maybe I misunderstood something though?

In talking (calls/emails) with BUPERS about the subject, I never got a straight answer, but ITo got the impression everyone there thinks that since there are no fitreps in the IRR, you're just really not competitive at all, but in the situation of somebody who drilled then went IRR right before the board, you'd be OK.

To counter my own first paragraph, I have a friend who's an 1135 who was IRR, but would do ADT/ADSW (or whatever) to get his points, and he promoted to O-5 in the IRR.

So, I'd still be a little weary about, but it seems like my observation six or so years ago was wrong, or circumstances have changed, and you *can* promote to O-5 in the IRR. I've looked, and haven't found an instruction or memo to verify that though.
 

Sam I am

Average looking, not a farmer.
pilot
Contributor
So, I'd still be a little weary about, but it seems like my observation six or so years ago was wrong, or circumstances have changed, and you *can* promote to O-5 in the IRR. I've looked, and haven't found an instruction or memo to verify that though.

The circumstance seemed to change around 2010. A few of the guys I know who got out, kept a reserve commission (but did not participate) made O-4. The weird thing was I think those guys were basically screwed already, right? They hadn't drilled at all in their previous 2 or 3, thus those years weren't "good years" and since they hadn't done anything those guys probably weren't going to make O-5 unless they came back as a SEL-RES and got really competitive really quick. Weird...So while it's possible to promote I agree with you: not probable. I'm going to assume I don't make it and just make every year count.

BTW, I just sent in my application for Naval War College - Web Enabled JPME. They are user name and password only. No CAC required since they're an .edu domain. I spoke with the web enabled program head and went over my plan in detail, he said it was good to go. I should score 3 good years and 63 points per year (48 for my course and 15 participation) assuming I get in. Which I should, based on my past academic track record. However, to others reading this, be aware that there is a waiting list. Once my application is in I should pick up a course in APR or MAY. The JAN and FEB courses were full. The three modules can be taken in any order. Seems pretty legit. Once enrolling he said to expect an additional 10 hours of work per week added into my life. That sucks for me, but it is what is... Also, the program head is familiar with Reservists, both SEL-RES and IRR. He understood immediately what my goals were regarding timing, anniversary year, points and life balance.

I'll update here and in the JPME section as I progress through the program.
 
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atmahan

... facility for offence.
I am also wondering about making O-5 in the IRR (but most likely will not).

Here has been my experience so far (sorry if its a little long-winded):

Active Duty, O-1 to O-3, black-shoe, 1997-2001 (summer): this gave me 5 Qualifying Years as I did 4 years plus a few months.

IRR, 2001 -2002, just the 15 Gratuity Points per Anniversary Year (as I was totally ignorant then), so I am behind by one "Good" Year.

SELRES, O-3 to O-4, 2003-2008, Admin/Training Officer/OIC at a Priority 1 Unit (but never mobilized), Maxed out Inactive Duty Points (90 points per year) plus AT/ADT points due to all the Admin work required to maintain Priority 1 Unit at highest Operational Readiness as possible due to possible mobilization. Awarded a Comm.

IRR, 2010-present, Still maxing out Inactive Duty Points (130 per Anniversary Year). Started and completed JPME Phase 1 during this time plus a lot of NKO, NETC Non-Resident Courses and MarineNet (thanks to this forum!). Staying in shape for annual IRR Muster/weigh in. Last Fitrep received was 2010.

I tried to rationalize my hopes of making O-5 as follows:

Active Duty and SELRES fitreps, combined with demonstration of initiative to max out Points on my own in the IRR (including completing JPME Phase 1). I did everything else I could: maintained my Service Record with fitreps and updated picture, etc, submitted my JPME Phase 1 diploma and made sure my OSR reflected it, etc.

Results:

FY2014 Reserve O-5 Board: Failure of Selection, now Above Zone

Future:

I have one more miniscule chance (FY2015), but if not, at least I will get 20 Qualifying Years as O-4 with the max points possible somone in IRR (I even submitted points for Midshipman Summer Cruises!).

And I can always go back SELRES for at least 3 years and get a signing bonus.

As for completing JPME Phase 1, Sense of Satisfaction: Priceless!

P.S. Non-CAC NKO just means more NETC! (currently taking all of the Chaplain courses, interesting stuff!)
 
I have one more miniscule chance (FY2015), but if not, at least I will get 20 Qualifying Years as O-4 with the max points possible somone in IRR (I even submitted points for Midshipman Summer Cruises!).

Atmahan, you might be good for 24 years commissioned service. Check out the FY13/14 Continuation plan:
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/career/reservepersonnelmgmt/officers/Pages/Continuation.aspx

I'm not there yet year-wise, but if I read it correctly, most URL O-4's will get approved for continuation this year; despite the drawdown, it seems like they're short of "field grade" O's in the Navy (judging by my talk w/some OSOs, and the fact there's still a SWO bonus). I'm not banking on it, but I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Anybody on here been through one of these panels?

Here's the process from the site:
Continuation Process
Officers’ records will be screened by PERS-911D, and those eligible for continuation will be notified 9 to 12 months before their mandatory attrition date and will be provided information on procedures for requesting continuation.

The officer must then return the form provided with the notification letter and provide any supporting documentation and endorsements to formally request continuation. Continuation requests will be considered by a Panel of Officers and the recommendations of the panel will be approved by PERS-9.

The deadline for requesting continuation will be provided in the notification letter from PERS-911D, and will normally be 6 months before the mandatory attrition date. No request will be considered if received less than 1 week before the convening date of the Panel.


Continuation Panels
Continuation Panels meet monthly, normally on the 1st Tuesday of each month. The Panel considers the member's current status, history of participation/performance, community manning, correspondence to the Panel, any adverse information (if applicable), active duty orders currently serving under (if applicable), and any previous periods of continuation or retention (if applicable).
 

subreservist

Well-Known Member
Atmahan, you might be good for 24 years commissioned service. Check out the FY13/14 Continuation plan:

I'm not there yet year-wise, but if I read it correctly, most URL O-4's will get approved for continuation this year; despite the drawdown, it seems like they're short of "field grade" O's in the Navy (judging by my talk w/some OSOs, and the fact there's still a SWO bonus). I'm not banking on it, but I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Anybody on here been through one of these panels?

Interesting that it mentions 1315s and not 1325s?

There was someone in my unit who just got out SELRES recently. We both came in with long breaks in service; not sure how long his was and after our initial meeting, we kinda kept missing each other, as I became busy pursuing quals to make myself look better for the last O4 board (which I made). He was an aviator, but not sure if he was 1315 or 1325. We caught up briefly, though, and exchanged conversation as each of us had received continuation letters from PERS 911.

As he was O4, and I was O3 at the time, I figured we had different form letters. I told him I had sent my letter in and was awaiting the outcome, whereas he informed me he wasn't going to bother because the continuation they offered would not get him to his 20 yrs. I didn't want to pry too much about it, but he was probably like me, in getting passed over for the next rank. So my guess is too many bad years will still put you too far behind the 8 ball. In my case, I was an O3 passed over twice, and continuation in that situation (as stated on the page) is for you to request continuation from the letter they send you, which gave me 1 additional year to get myself together for one last board. Suffice it to say it was a stressful process, but I got through the system.

For me, when I got out, I had no intention of returning, and didn't realize I was even still on the clock in the IRR (heck, I didn't know I was in the IRR-thought I was all the way out!). When I came back, I didn't know where I was promotion-wise and really didn't think much about (didn't even know I was up for board on the first look!) as I was still figuring the reserve world out.

I wish I could had spoke with him before he decided to leave, because I would had advised him to put in for the continuation and ride it out and if he was still shy a few years to just enlist to get the remainder. At retirement, you still get paid based on the highest rank achieved (although, you have to ride the last few yrs on the enlisted side-but I would think it worth the retirement).

My thoughts: You kinda have to rely on PERS to get the request letter to you (one of the few times where slipping through the cracks may not be in the members favor)...a correct address is a must for that! The continuation is actually a request, where they outline what attrition rule you fall under and what your are eligible to do. If you decide you want the continuation, you send the request along with your personal letter begging for approval by the deadline stated (which is actually pretty generous). It is not necessarily automatic, but if you fall into one of the critical designators, it favors you. Manning needs are always changing, so what is critical can vary really quickly. But the way this policy is designed, it basically an opening to allow O4 passovers to still have a chance to stay in, but too many bad years could make it challenging to get 20.

Also, I am pretty sure he fell into this latest FY13/14 policy, as that is what I fell under...
 

subreservist

Well-Known Member
Also, I was not being proactive in continuation...the letter arrived unexpectedly to my mailbox...when I realized I was coming on my 2nd look, I called PERS and asked if the reserve was the same as active in only getting 2 looks and being put out. She told me "no, reserve can be looked at for promotion indefinitely." Of course, that was not the right answer, LOL!
 
Thanks subreservist! It's funny how little you know about the reserves when you're active, or even just starting. When I started drilling, my fitreps were fine, and I figured LCDR was a no brainer. It wasn't until I got passed over my first time that I realized something was wrong--none of my reserve fitreps ever made it to BUPERS! On the active side, it's a given the admin dept will send them on. We had the deadlines to get them to the NOSC, the NOSC corrected them...but nobody ever sent them on! That's when I embraced the "my record is up to me" philosophy. It'd have been nice to get O-4 on the first look though!

Glad it worked out for you, and not surprised at the answer from BUPERS...
 

atmahan

... facility for offence.
The response from PERS: "no, reserve can be looked at for promotion indefinitely." brings up a suspicion that I have always had regarding 2XFOS in regards to O-3s and above.

I have a theory that 2XFOS is really meant for Active Duty O-3s and above.

As I read the policies in NPC, for example: an Active O-4 with 14-16 Years that makes 2xFOS (and, therefore, also Above Zone) will, for sure, never make Active O-5 and must get out of Active Duty.

But the 20 Commissioned Years guarantee allows the O-4 the option to switch to SELRES/IRR and finish off 20 years (upon the initiative of the person in regards of getting points) in the Reserves. Technically, even though that O-4 is 2XFOS, I think all Above Zone are still looked at in the Selection Boards.

This could be what the PERS person meant, but I am just guessing.

But someone recently mentioned in this forum that he was in a Selection Board recently and the rule was "no IRR O-4s will be selected" So this pretty much nullifies "no, reserve can be looked at for promotion indefinitely." They will look at the reserve O-4, yes, but just never select if IRR (but O-4 SELRES still have a shot?).

What do you guys think?

(I also think a thread should be made regarding individuals trying to stay alive and advance in the IRR).
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The response from PERS: "no, reserve can be looked at for promotion indefinitely." brings up a suspicion that I have always had regarding 2XFOS in regards to O-3s and above. I have a theory that 2XFOS is really meant for Active Duty O-3s and above......

I know two folks to make O-4 in the Navy Reserve on their 3rd look in the reserves, 5th look overall (including the two looks on active duty). I also know an O-6 who made it on his third look as well so yes, it is possible in the reserves and though not very common it is not extremely unusual like active duty.
 

subreservist

Well-Known Member
The response from PERS: "no, reserve can be looked at for promotion indefinitely." brings up a suspicion that I have always had regarding 2XFOS in regards to O-3s and above.

I have a theory that 2XFOS is really meant for Active Duty O-3s and above.

As I read the policies in NPC, for example: an Active O-4 with 14-16 Years that makes 2xFOS (and, therefore, also Above Zone) will, for sure, never make Active O-5 and must get out of Active Duty.

But the 20 Commissioned Years guarantee allows the O-4 the option to switch to SELRES/IRR and finish off 20 years (upon the initiative of the person in regards of getting points) in the Reserves. Technically, even though that O-4 is 2XFOS, I think all Above Zone are still looked at in the Selection Boards.

This could be what the PERS person meant, but I am just guessing.

But someone recently mentioned in this forum that he was in a Selection Board recently and the rule was "no IRR O-4s will be selected" So this pretty much nullifies "no, reserve can be looked at for promotion indefinitely." They will look at the reserve O-4, yes, but just never select if IRR (but O-4 SELRES still have a shot?).

What do you guys think?

(I also think a thread should be made regarding individuals trying to stay alive and advance in the IRR).

For active, I think if they have a continuation/retention policy in place (similar to the current one for reserves), then the active O4 pass-over (or higher rank) could stay in active to get his 20 (or whatever length the policy sets, not to exceed 24 years).

I wish I could've picked the brain of the O4 guy in my unit before he decided to get out, because he said he couldn't get to 20, which gave me the impression that he was not getting looked at again for O5. You get your 2 looks on active (if you stay that long), then another 2 minimum reserve, with a possible 3rd. But I'm sure there are folks who have slipped through the cracks in some way and have probably gotten another look beyond.

I would think it a simple matter for PERS to remove the record (annotate in a database that a mbr has received his max amount of looks) that way the person is on the books, but not up for board. But PERS does make errors, especially with reserve stuff.

I think the guy I'm mentioning got caught up because of the number of qualifying vs total commissioned service years he had. But he had nothing to lose by requesting the continuation and maybe he would've kept getting looked at for O5....he was on track for good FITREPS (he was actually working on the same qual I got, Theater ASW Watch officer).

But I know for a fact for me, O3 at the time, my letter actually said you have 1 year for 1 more look and if you don't make it we will give you the boot "on the 7th month following the results of the board), which works out to January 2014. But there is a big difference of going O3/O4 and O4/O5...pretty much all O3 makes O4 in the reserve barring a weird case (like a break in service...lol).

Now for your IRR promotion question...my thoughts are I would think it unlikely for them to try to set a precedent beforehand not to promote any IRRs. I've never picked the brain of any recorders or otherwise, but my thoughts are the records go up with no true indication of the persons reserve status and the briefings on each mbr are fairly quick. Most who know what to look for can readily pick out who is SELRES vs IRR. I think the main element is the FITREP...if you have a few strategic placed ones, maybe doing VTU before you're up for board or maybe even grabbing one from a short ADSW or something, you wouldn't look too different. I know that JPME is looked at as a big wicket for promotion, masters degree in the areas they indicate in board letter. As a matter of fact, that precept letter and the community brief for your designator on pers site...I know it would be a huge pain for an IRR mbr, but if you knocked out things listed on there prior to board, and got it annotated in a VTU FITREP, I can't see how you couldn't make it, when there are active SELRES who aren't doing all that stuff.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I wish I could've picked the brain of the O4 guy in my unit before he decided to get out, because he said he couldn't get to 20, which gave me the impression that he was not getting looked at again for O5.

I'm guessing the guy you mention had at least one bad year, which has caused him to not hit 20 qualifying years (as you mentioned) but still had 20 years of service. If he's an O-4 with only 19 good years but 20 total YOS, he's done. Do not pass go. We had an E-6 that had the same problem in my last squadron. They weren't entertaining waivers, either.
 

Sam I am

Average looking, not a farmer.
pilot
Contributor
As the OP, I respectfully ask that the promotion conversation now go to another thread...and yeah, I do realize that I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth as I participated in that conversation, it's just this thread is turning into something entirely different from the title.

But I will add this. I flew with a guy who got destroyed on an Active Duty O-3 FITREP due to Height and Weight issues. He & I went SEL-RES in the same unit and he failed to select O-4. He got three looks...and he's out. Done at 13 or 14 years...he could finish by enlisting in a Guard unit somewhere, but...even as an O-3 Reservist Aviator, O-4 is no sure thing.

Thanks,
Sam
 
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I'm guessing the guy you mention had at least one bad year, which has caused him to not hit 20 qualifying years (as you mentioned) but still had 20 years of service. If he's an O-4 with only 19 good years but 20 total YOS, he's done. Do not pass go. We had an E-6 that had the same problem in my last squadron. They weren't entertaining waivers, either.

Are you sure that's totally right? I think the "sanctuary" provision applies. I'm not a lawyer, but basically if, on the day they will kick you out, you'll have at least 18 "good years", they'll give you three years to get your 20, *then* boot you out.

Title 10, Subtitle E, Part II, Chapter 1219, Section 12646 --

"§ 12646. Commissioned officers: retention of after completing 18 or more, but less than 20, years of service

12732 of this title, he may not be discharged or transferred from an active status under chapter 573, 1407, or 1409 of this title or chapter 21 of title 14, without his consent before the earlier of the following dates—
12732 of this title; or
12732 of this title, he may not be discharged or transferred from an active status under chapter 573, 1407, or 1409 of this title or chapter 21 of title 14, without his consent before the earlier of the following dates—
12732 of this title; or
(2) the second anniversary of the date on which he would otherwise be discharged or transferred from an active status."
 
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