"No Chance, Paddles!"....EA-6B lands on S-3B

[FrankTheTank]

SKID... To reiterate.. They did screw the pooch.. But it doesn't mean ATC can't do a better job in helping all pilots.. When I was on cruise, I watched a Prowler land on an S-3 in the LA.. The Air Boss saw it the whole time but since the LSOs control the LA, he did not wave-off the Prowler (4 people dead- one torso found).. :icon_rage Just because some things are not in our job description doesn't mean we can't do a better job of preventing accidents and more importantly the loss of innocent life..

 

[Nose]

The Air Boss saw it the whole time but since the LSOs control the LA, he did not wave-off the Prowler (4 people dead- one torso found)

That's wrong. Boss/AGO owns the LA. That is where the term "No chance, Paddles." Comes from.

LSOs claimed that they thought the LA was clear, but they still took the guy waaaay too close on that one.

 

[BigIron]

If you look at the ILARTS footage of said mishap, there was never a clear deck given. I think the airboss got fired on the spot. Was the phrase "no chance, Paddles" an outcome of that mishap, or was it there before? It was on CVN-65 in early '98.

 

[FrankTheTank]

That's wrong. Boss/AGO owns the LA. That is where the term "No chance, Paddles." Comes from.

LSOs claimed that they thought the LA was clear, but they still took the guy waaaay too close on that one.

Perhaps the boss owns the LA.. But! Sorry.. I know you are sold on all that LSO shit... But I was there.. And 2 of my roommates were on the platform.. They fucked up... 4 dead and 2 burned! Boss made all cruise and BOTH cag paddles went on to Dept Head tours... One even in the same Airwing.. Controlling LSO, quit, went to Meridian, now flys MD-11s here; back-up LSO, JetBlue Captain... Doesn't matter who controls the LA, lots of folks had a chance to prevent it.. I watched it live on the PLAT... You can give me any LSO school yada, yada but I was there and heard plenty of how "We thought, etc" And for the record, one of the LSOs on the platform said they were laughing and joking just prior about something and not paying attention... But you will never find that in any record.. Nor his Marital Affair prior to his S-3 to Hornet transition.. One of the many reasons I quit and went the airline route... Oh and did I mention, that they also had several more Fouled Deck landings on cruise... The prowler guys shut down their flight schedule... And when me and my Ops O refused to fly that night, he got a personal phone call from CAG and looked at me and said "We are going flying, under orders"... He quit at the 18 year mark and is now flying MD-11s here.. In summary, "Way to close" are just words............... to me...

 

[Nose]

In summary, "Way to close" are just words............... to me...

Boom Boom,

Don't disagree with a single thing you said. Wasn't trying to deflect any blame from LSOs. Paddles is the last chance to save a mishap and those guys failed. I think everyone familiar knows they screwed the pooch. As did the boss. We had a pretty strict rule, no talking in the peanut gallery while a plane is on the ball for just the reasons you sited.

Big Iron,

"No Chance Paddles" has been around for a long time. It's usually made on the 5MC (the Flight Deck PA) I think A4s made reference to it from back in his days. Basically the boss uses it when he has the big picture that there is no way the next aircraft will get aboard. (Problem clearing the hook, nosewheel steering problem, arresting gear problem below deck, etc.)

 

[FrankTheTank]

Don't disagree with a single thing you said. Wasn't trying to deflect any blame from LSOs. Paddles is the last chance to save a mishap and those guys failed. I think everyone familiar knows they screwed the pooch. As did the boss. We had a pretty strict rule, no talking in the peanut gallery while a plane is on the ball for just the reasons you sited.

Thanks...

 

[BigIron]

If the deck is still foul, when does the LSO wave the a/c off? 3/4 mile?

It's happened before boss calls no chance. I see you guys over there with your pickle switches overhead while I am frantically trying to get the LA clear and engine in battery. Then when I go green on the DSL, I see the wave off lights.

 

[HeyJoe]

"No Chance Paddles" has been around for a long time.

I remember being used routinely over 25 years ago (usually as the sacrificial A-7s showed up first at night and waist wasn't wrapped yet).

 

[BigIron]

I remember being used routinely over 25 years ago (usually as the sacrificial A-7s showed up first at night and waist wasn't wrapped yet).

I didn't know if it was a result of the Enterprise mishap, or what. I would be interested to know the lessons learned as a result of that mishap and if anything changed.

 

[Flash]

Don't disagree with a single thing you said. Wasn't trying to deflect any blame from LSOs. Paddles is the last chance to save a mishap and those guys failed. I think everyone familiar knows they screwed the pooch. As did the boss. We had a pretty strict rule, no talking in the peanut gallery while a plane is on the ball for just the reasons you sited.

I talked to a few of the guys in the Prowler squadron about 3 years later and they were still pretty angry about the whole incident.

 

[A4sForever]

That's wrong. Boss/AGO owns the LA. That is where the term "No chance, Paddles." Comes from.

LSOs claimed that they thought the LA was clear, but they still took the guy waaaay too close on that one.

That's a tough one ... as it goes both ways ... and I HATE to compromise.

I would stand on the deck when the deck was fouled ... only move nearer to the platform when I got a phone-talker scream "CLEAR DECK !!!" into my ear/face. Postmortems are alway about covering one's "6". Unfortunately ...

BTW .... "WAVE-OFF, NO CHANCE !!!" was MY copyrighted call .... not the BOSS's.

 

[A4sForever]

....Sorry.. I know you are sold on all that LSO shit... But I was there.. And 2 of my roommates were on the platform.. They fucked up...one of the LSOs on the platform said they were laughing and joking just prior about something and not paying attention...

I don't know how the crash in KY ever morph'ed into an "LSOs can't wave" thread ..... but:

Sometimes we all fuck up.... and sometimes YOU fuck up, Boom. Sometimes LSOs fuck up. Sometimes pilots fuck up. Sometimes the guy who bags your groceries at Albertson's fucks up.

There's LSOs who should not be allowed to touch the pickel. PERIOD. I don't know whether or not these guys fell into that category. We were HARD CORE on the platform -- all of us in my experience. I would not allow ANY laughin' and scratchin' from the peanut gallery while I was running the platform. If it started to happen, the offenders were off the platform ASAP never to return, as they'd already been briefed on where to stand, how to escape, and to STFU otherwise. If "they" did allow grab-assing on the platform -- the LSOs you were "there" with -- then that was a mistake on their part.

I never fucked up as an LSO .... but I was lucky.... even as a trainee. I fucked up as a pilot -- but it never caused a crash and no one ever got hurt as a result of my failings ... and I learned from the experiences. GOOD LSOs seldom fuck up ... but it can happen. I wasn't there on this accident and can't speak to the specifics -- but I know the basics ... and they, the basics -- don't change. Sounds like there were many, many breakdowns on that ship and AirWing -- the LSOs being just one of a collection of errors that proved to be fatal. It just doesn't "happen" on one night, you know. There's trends prior ....

BOOM --- don't be a PLAT LSO. PLAT LSOs are a dime a dozen, nearly all are clueless, and most don't know jack. "You were there" ... on the PLAT?? Please, gimme a break.

BTW, I never went to "LSO school" 'cause there wasn't any.

And I believe most of the LSO "shit" .... 'cause I know ALL of the LSO "shit", as you put it.

 

[Nose]

If the deck is still foul, when does the LSO wave the a/c off? 3/4 mile?

No, much much closer. From LSO NATOPS:

During normal recovery operations, the LSO shall
initiate a foul deck waveoff such that normal waveoff
response will allow the aircraft to pass no closer than 10
feet to the landing area. If aircraft, personnel, or equipment
are in the landing area, the waveoff shall prevent
the aircraft from passing within 100 feet of the highest
obstacle in the landing area.

 

[Nose]

Also from LSO NATOPS:

Foul deck waveoff responsibility rests equally with
the controlling and backup LSOs. Additionally, when in
the opinion of the air officer, the deck will remain foul
throughout an aircraft’s approach (i.e., arresting gear
malfunctions, personnel or equipment in the landing
area, etc.), he should advise the LSO via the 5MC, ‘no
chance, foul/closed deck.” The LSO shall immediately
initiate the waveoff using the FLOLS/MOVLAS
waveoff lights and a UHF radio transmission (EMCON
permitting).

EMCON was NEVER a consideration when we waved someone off. It was ALWAYS given on the Radio.

 

[A4sForever]

I remember being used routinely over 25 years ago (usually as the sacrificial A-7s showed up first at night and waist wasn't wrapped yet).

Wow!!! How times change .....

The F-4's were ALWAYS the first to show up on the ball .... day or night .... think gas.