NFO flight training to civilian flight time conversion

[dbatt005]

I am an NFO that also flies privately. I have my ASEL PPL with instrument rating and would like to get my commercial ticket. I have no desire to work toward the airlines but would like to fly for hire on the side once I leave the military. I have spoken to many CFIs and get differing stories. There is also nothing definitive in the FARs besides the 61.41 flight training section:

"61.41 Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA.
(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:
(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either -
(i) The United States; or
(ii) A foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation."

Although I did not claim any of my T-6 flight or simulator time towards my PPL, the Chief Pilot told me I could if I wanted to based on 61.41. I have sent a message to the local FSDO and awaiting a response but was wondering if there are any others out there that have gone through this (nothing retrieved from searching the forums). Basically I would like to know if I can claim any T-6 flight time or simulator time towards the 61.129 aeronautical experience for commercial (250 TT with up to 50 instructed simulator hours).

 

[zippy]

I am an NFO that also flies privately. I have my ASEL PPL with instrument rating and would like to get my commercial ticket. I have no desire to work toward the airlines but would like to fly for hire on the side once I leave the military. I have spoken to many CFIs and get differing stories. There is also nothing definitive in the FARs besides the 61.41 flight training section:

"61.41 Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA.
(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:
(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either -
(i) The United States; or
(ii) A foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation."

Although I did not claim any of my T-6 flight or simulator time towards my PPL, the Chief Pilot told me I could if I wanted to based on 61.41. I have sent a message to the local FSDO and awaiting a response but was wondering if there are any others out there that have gone through this (nothing retrieved from searching the forums). Basically I would like to know if I can claim any T-6 flight time or simulator time towards the 61.129 aeronautical experience for commercial (250 TT with up to 50 instructed simulator hours).

I know dudes who didn’t get winged who counted their flight school time towards commercial rating requirements successfully. I think they only used the flight time in the aircraft towards ratings requirements.

Their logbooks showed FP/CP time, not SCREW. If your flights are logged as SCREW then I’m not sure if that’s becomes an issue unless you kept a civilian logbook to mirror your military logbook entries.

@wink or @HAL Pilot may have something insightful to add since both were NFOs who now fly professionally as pilots...

 

[HAL Pilot]

Special crew is not pilot time. Don’t use it.

Plus you were not in a program for training military pilots. You were in a program to train military NFOs.

 

[wink]

Going to have to defer to HAL on this as I was never an instructor nor FAA Administrative Law Sea Lawyer.

 

[cfam]

Out of curiosity, would it be legal to count it if the flights were logged as CP time? I’ll take a look at my logbook tomorrow, but I’m pretty sure that my first two or three T-6 primary flights (where you actually get stick time) were logged by the IP as CP time.

 

[wink]

I will say this. I'd argue that if you are civilian legal in category, class, etc, and you happen to occupy a seat with a stick and otherwise qualify per Part 61, you should be able to log it in your civ log book. I am thinking of my NFO squadron mate, (who wasn't civ rated). He went to the C-12 RAG for a staff job and flew right seat all the time. @HAL ?

 

[HAL Pilot]

Special crew is not pilot time. Don’t use it.

Plus you were not in a program for training military pilots. You were in a program to train military NFOs.

Going to have to defer to HAL on this as I was never an instructor nor FAA Administrative Law Sea Lawyer.

I will say this. I'd argue that if you are civilian legal in category, class, etc, and you happen to occupy a seat with a stick and otherwise qualify per Part 61, you should be able to log it in your civ log book. I am thinking of my NFO squadron mate, (who wasn't civ rated). He went to the C-12 RAG for a staff job and flew right seat all the time. @HAL ?

Seeing Winks responses made me think of exceptions...

If you were in the front right seat of a S-3 or C-12 as an NFO and held a minimum of a private pilot multiengine instrument commercial license then you can log that special crew time as civilian SIC time. You were a required crew member in a multi-piloted aircraft with the appropriate ratings sitting behind some controls.

We just hired a former S-3 turned F/A-18 WSO who used his S-3 right seat time to get hired at a regional and now us. When he first got out of the Navy he came to us as a ground school instructor, left about 2 years ago for a regional and came back to us as a pilot about 2-3 months ago.

But the OPs question was regarding T-6 time during NFO training.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

We just hired a former S-3 turned F/A-18 WSO who used his S-3 right seat time to get hired at a regional and now us.

Yikes. And some other time, I hope?

 

[HAL Pilot]

He had all his rating through ATP so yeah but that was a good bit of the time needed for the ATP.

 

[FrankTheTank]

The S-3B is single piloted.. I forget the exact wording in the NATOPS but it was words to the effect that ‘this aircraft requires a Naval Aviator and a passenger for operation.’ But not the first NFO that I have heard to log “stick”time towards their resume. Every time we got an NFO CO, the first NATOPS change submitted was changing the wording and in my 4 years of flying the S-3, it never changed..

 

[HAL Pilot]

I think 3710 used to say it (and the A-6/EA-6B but they didn’t have controls) were considered multi-piloted although a NFO was the second guy. Don’t know what the aircraft NATOPS said.

I knew a S-3 NFO that took that blurb to the FAA and got him to count his time toward an ATP. Not this guy but another one when the Hoover was still flying.

Back in the day, it was pretty common for S-3 NFOs to do this.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I think 3710 used to say it (and the A-6/EA-6B but they didn’t have controls) were considered multi-piloted although a NFO was the second guy. Don’t know what the aircraft NATOPS said.

I knew a S-3 NFO that took that blurb to the FAA and got him to count his time toward an ATP. Not this guy but another one when the Hoover was still flying.

Back in the day, it was pretty common for S-3 NFOs to do this.

Not really related but since you are talking about the S-3, a S-3 NFO I knew said that he would sometimes get to be at the controls when the plane was landing (not on a carrier), is this something that was done or allowed, or was he embellishing on his role a bit?

 

[HAL Pilot]

I’ve heard that a lot from S-3 NFOs. Frank would know better but I’d guess it would depend upon the pilot’s willingness to break the rules.....

I’ve also heard of a few Vietnam era A-6 pilots that taught their BNs to land with their left hands reaching across the cockpit. A “fuck I’m hit keep me alive” maneuver.

I do know that back when NFOs got right seat jobs in station C-12s, they went to Flight Safety at Wichita with the pilots and did the pilot syllabus there (no NFO syllabus at a civilian sim center). They also landed all the time when there were no pax onboard. I believe they had to demonstrate at landing for their NATOPS check or safe to fly with pax qualification. I had 2 or 3 NFO friends that flew C-12s on their shore tour.

 

[FrankTheTank]

I think 3710 used to say it (and the A-6/EA-6B but they didn’t have controls) were considered multi-piloted although a NFO was the second guy. Don’t know what the aircraft NATOPS said.

I knew a S-3 NFO that took that blurb to the FAA and got him to count his time toward an ATP. Not this guy but another one when the Hoover was still flying.

Back in the day, it was pretty common for S-3 NFOs to do this.

What you are referring to was in relation to instrument minimums. So I could see someone using that to justify multi piloted. Or maybe the S-3A was multi piloted. But S-3B was Naval Aviator and passenger. That would drive NFOs crazy when we (pilots) would get in our sarcastic smack talks.

And to answer the other guys question. I have let the NFOs fly all kinds of different profiles of flight. Landing, sure, can’t be worse than a FAM-1 intermediate SNA. I let many fly form. I personally never let one tank but I know others that have. I also let Midshipman and Maintenance personnel fly when they were in the right seat too.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

What you are referring to was in relation to instrument minimums. So I could see someone using that to justify multi piloted. Or maybe the S-3A was multi piloted. But S-3B was Naval Aviator and passenger. That would drive NFOs crazy when we (pilots) would get in our sarcastic smack talks.

And to answer the other guys question. I have let the NFOs fly all kinds of different profiles of flight. Landing, sure, can’t be worse than a FAM-1 intermediate SNA. I let many fly form. I personally never let one tank but I know others that have. I also let Midshipman and Maintenance personnel fly when they were in the right seat too.

The "other guy" appreciates the info