Navy Weather Woes

[Brett327]

If you've got recurring engine issues, that should be handled through the regular NAMDRP system or via a HAZREP. If the ASAP system was used on an as needed basis, rather than the ridiculous mandate that it be used for negative reporting, it would have alot more credibility. Good concept that was botched by heavy-handed implementation. ASAP reporting went away in my old squadron (and maybe community) for the past 2 years.

Brett

 

[squorch2]

The issue is that we encourage people to report even the smallest thing that went wrong - stuff that may seem to be just a one-time thing (the engine thing - in this case sluggish/uneven spool up from idle during autos) but taken as a whole represents a trend. It's catching the small things before they become a big thing.

The mandatory reporting logic goes like this: with mandatory reporting, aircrew get used to doing ASAP and reporting even small things, letting Safety sift out what's inconsequential, thereby lowering the threshold for reporting incidents. Without mandatory reporting, ASAP is just e-anymouse.

 

[Harrier Dude]

The issue is that we encourage people to report even the smallest thing that went wrong - stuff that may seem to be just a one-time thing (the engine thing - in this case sluggish/uneven spool up from idle during autos) but taken as a whole represents a trend. It's catching the small things before they become a big thing.

The mandatory reporting logic goes like this: with mandatory reporting, aircrew get used to doing ASAP and reporting even small things, letting Safety sift out what's inconsequential, thereby lowering the threshold for reporting incidents. Without mandatory reporting, ASAP is just e-anymouse.

Yeah......I still think its stupid, but maybe it's just me.

 

[squorch2]

You're not alone... and like I said, I don't think TACAIR is going to have buy-in anytime soon due to the single-seat nature of the training you guys get. <shrug>

 

[nittany03]

You're not alone... and like I said, I don't think TACAIR is going to have buy-in anytime soon due to the single-seat nature of the training you guys get. <shrug>

¿Què? Quite a bit of TACAIR is non-single seat.

 

[Brett327]

You're not alone... and like I said, I don't think TACAIR is going to have buy-in anytime soon due to the single-seat nature of the training you guys get. <shrug>

What does that have to do with ASAP? At any rate, I reemphasize that maintenance issues should be handled through the existing channels. Relying on ASAP to do trend analysis on recurring maintenance issues is a dangerous path to go down. It's not like the thing recognizes trends by some whiz-bang data fusion process. You're relying on some Safety flunky at the Wing to hopefully identify this stuff. Second, I know what the logic is behind mandatory reporting, but the real world result is that people don't use the system. If we, as a community, were more focused on results than appearances, we'd be a lot better off and probably enjoy a measure of enhanced safety.

Brett

 

[squorch2]

Most definitely - but the training you guys get in VT-land is aimed at making single-seat guys and gals, right? I can't say for sure why, but something in there has to play into the lack of acceptance of ASAP in the TACAIR community vice other communities where it's been making steady inroads, as it's the only common thing. (I haven't seen or heard about ASAP numbers/acceptance in VT-86 but would really like to hear from the double-anchor side of the house about it.)

 

[squorch2]

What does that have to do with ASAP? At any rate, I reemphasize that maintenance issues should be handled through the existing channels. Relying on ASAP to do trend analysis on recurring maintenance issues is a dangerous path to go down.

The first and best method of tracking maintenance issues through MAFs - pretty sure we agree on this. It seems like you're fixating on my earlier example, which is pretty specific to a contract maintenance scenario. There is a HAZREP in progress about the stuff, but when your squadron doesn't own the maintenance department, lots of things get lost in the A799 shuffle. At any rate, trend recognition and analysis should be an ongoing effort regardless of whether its maintenance, ops, policy stuff, course rules, whatever. The idea behind ASAP is to get more data points, regardless of how seemingly insignificant they are.

You're relying on some Safety flunky at the Wing to hopefully identify this stuff.

There should be an ASAP guy or gal in your squadron reviewing your results at the squadron level, but I can see how squadron manning levels might impact that.

If we, as a community, were more focused on results than appearances, we'd be a lot better off and probably enjoy a measure of enhanced safety.

Amen to that - it's an uphill battle to keep things that are safety-related transparent and non-punitive, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other areas in which we can improve safety.

Lastly, if mandatory reporting is resulting in less reporting, what's the reason behind that? Spite? Culture? I can only speak for shore-based commands, but ASAP takes about 15 or so seconds for a non-event.

 

[Brett327]

You helo guys still fill out that little ORM matrix card to add up your points? Yeah, we don't do that either.

Brett

 

[squorch2]

Not here in HT land. ORM matrices for flights are a knee-jerk reaction that doesn't provide much of anything other than top cover. I've never seen a mission cancelled or modified because the ORM score was too low - just had to go talk to the OPSO or CO, depending.

 

[Brett327]

The first and best method of tracking maintenance issues through MAFs - pretty sure we agree on this. It seems like you're fixating on my earlier example, which is pretty specific to a contract maintenance scenario. There is a HAZREP in progress about the stuff, but when your squadron doesn't own the maintenance department, lots of things get lost in the A799 shuffle. At any rate, trend recognition and analysis should be an ongoing effort regardless of whether its maintenance, ops, policy stuff, course rules, whatever. The idea behind ASAP is to get more data points, regardless of how seemingly insignificant they are.There should be an ASAP guy or gal in your squadron reviewing your results at the squadron level, but I can see how squadron manning levels might impact that.Amen to that - it's an uphill battle to keep things that are safety-related transparent and non-punitive, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other areas in which we can improve safety.

Lastly, if mandatory reporting is resulting in less reporting, what's the reason behind that? Spite? Culture? I can only speak for shore-based commands, but ASAP takes about 15 or so seconds for a non-event.

I contend that more data isn't necessarily better and shouldn't be construed as a panacea. We also collect reams and reams of useless data as an Enterprise, but I'm beating a dead horse here.

It takes more than 15 seconds and that's still 15 seconds of my time that could be better spent on purposeful tasks. People resent being forced to make mandatory negative reports that serve no other purpose than to validate that the system is being used, regardless of whether any valid information is being generated. As a result, they blow off the entire system. If they made it available as a tool for reporting actual incidents (like the airlines do), then it would gain more legitimacy. Ive been a Safety Officer and I've seen some of the good stuff that came out of it when people used it. That's the real tragedy of ASAP. Now I'm being mello-dramatic.

Brett

 

[squorch2]

I agree that more isn't better, as I discard about half of the ASAPs that I read, but out of those that are useful we've gotten policy changes, gear improvements, etc. that represent real gains due to ASAP. I'm not saying ASAP is a panacea, as there was a lot of work that went into developing solutions to the problems, but ASAP provided the raw data points. Since you've seen the good that it does firsthand, hopefully you can encourage its use to report events that might otherwise slip through.

 

[jtmedli]

I think the ASAP program/site is a good concept, but having to log-in and do reports for every single flight when there's nothing to report or say is a waste of time and energy.

 

[Pags]

We were discussing ASAP at work the other day and I think that a lot of it's design is to get this data up to ISICs. Stuff that would normally be inside the lifelines is now being seen by the Wing, etc.

Most JOs that I know are more than willing to go talk to squadron leadership about in flight situations, but if there's a issue in the squadron, command climate as an example, I don't know many people who'd go to an ISIC about an issue.

 

[Jim123]

We were discussing ASAP at work the other day and I think that a lot of it's design is to get this data up to ISICs. Stuff that would normally be inside the lifelines is now being seen by the Wing, etc.

Most JOs that I know are more than willing to go talk to squadron leadership about in flight situations, but if there's a issue in the squadron, command climate as an example, I don't know many people who'd go to an ISIC about an issue.

That's the main justification, for better or for worse, for the program to exist at all- so the "higher" echelons can nip stuff in the bud. I'm not so naïve to believe that it always works that way, but that's the idea (the general idea that people in charge of stuff are supposed to make it easier for the people they're in charge of to do their jobs). And by design or by dumb luck, sometimes the "system" actually works...