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It's finally happening . . . Big Navy is canning the stack rank FITREP/Eval

Discussion in 'Main Forum' started by nittany03, May 7, 2017.

  1. IKE

    IKE Nerd Whirler None

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    Interesting. In my JO squadron Aircraft DIVO was either pre-QAO or the final also-ran job (i.e., FITREP ranking below NATOPS & QAO).

    I saw one jg as Line DIVO, but he was a prior-enlisted, undesignated-turned-AT, so the front office, I assume, thought he would ace it (didn't work out so well; I think the real mustangs sniffed him out).
     
  2. Brett327

    Brett327 Well-Known Member Super Moderator None Contributor

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    No we're not. Discipline issues take up approx. 0-1 percent of my bandwidth on any given day.
     
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  3. sevenhelmet

    sevenhelmet Did I miss a step? None

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    That's some pretty negative perception of DHs and above, and doesn't align with my personal experience. It's certainly not the kind of DH I plan to be.
     
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  4. AllAmerican75

    AllAmerican75 On Shore Duty; va bene. None

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    Man, that sounds like SWO games to me. Except for the flying bit, that's directly out of Bitter SWO JO Tour 101.

    My first ship was an FTS FFG out of Mayport, so we had some ancient, crusty Chiefs who had somehow managed to stick around in the Mayport Mafia their entire career, and the differences I could see in those guys versus some of the more recent Chiefs was large. But then again, we had some Chiefs who signed up for the ROAD program as soon as they put on khakis, so maybe it's an individual thing.

    I concur 100%. My best Chiefs allowed me to be the skipper of my division and provided much needed advice, even when I didn't want it. Also, even in SWO Land, mentoring from your Skipper and XO play a huge part in your development. Thinking back on my first tour, as awful as it was, it really set me up for success in my second tour and on shore duty because my CO and XO both took a vested interest in my learning not only basic SWO gouge but also how I fit into the bigger Navy. Many JOs didn't get that and it's one of the reasons the SWO community has taken such a round turn on mentoring JOs.

    I disagree. When I was a DH and XO on the PC, though we were small, the majority of my time was spent talking outside the lifelines and pulling answers from my Sailors in order to feed up to DESRON or SURFLANT or Fleet Forces that it was hard refocus back on the crew and issues inside the skin of the ship. I think the problem is we're too busy and focused on administrivia and e-mail and other instantaneous forms of communication have driven people to want answers and decisions now, now, now with no time to think. The solution there is more white space in the battle rhythm and less GMT/CMEO/SAPR/non-warfighting BS.
     
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  5. jtmedli

    jtmedli Playing the game... None

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    It's not negative. It's just a comment on the climate of micromanagement I've experienced. It's also not to say I've necessarily had all bad DHs though I've definitely taken notes on how not to do the job from a few of them.
     
  6. jtmedli

    jtmedli Playing the game... None

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    I've never really understood that about SWOs. You promote to O4 at like 90+ % or some craziness yet they feel need to eat their young like they're not going to make it up the chain if they don't. There are nuggets of truth to what I said. Some of it was tongue in cheek. But it's safe to say the career path of Naval aviators is not one that breeds expert aviators the way it should. Im all for putting an emphasis on the Officer aspect of it but we need some sort of alternate career path that allows us to keep more of the experts who don't screen for command around rather than saying "sorry, have fun on the boat for the next 8 years" (a bit helo specific of a gripe). Right now it's pretty much screen for command or bust and, other than the CO, XO and a half dozen DHs, we just fill the command with unqualified JOs who are only useful and "experienced" their last 3-6 months in the command. I'm not advocating for a total shift but a few bodies here and a few bodies there would make a noticeable difference.

    Our new SWTP (tactics syllabus) also perpetuates this problem by inadvertently encouraging command to pick 1 or 2 JOs who are going to fly twice as much as everyone else and get qualified while everyone else is left out in the lurch. And, before you say it, I'm not a bitter JO. I was one of the lucky few but that doesn't mean I cared for the system which encouraged people to do some of the things I mentioned above.
     
  7. DanMa1156

    DanMa1156 Land of the Milk and Honey. Contributor None

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    And the issues with that, among others are:

    1. Sometimes they pick the wrong guy / gal who turns out not to be as good as once thought.
    2. The Commodores still say "JO's aren't expected to make Level III(i) across the board, with this new system;" yet, Skippers are still treating it like they are supposed to and choosing one or two "golden children" super early.
    3. Dudes who join squadrons mid or at the end of deployments and don't get a workup cycle won't ever get the flight hours allocated their way, so they get screwed, good or not.

    I don't see the .6 as any worse than the previous SWTP, but I don't see how it fixed any issues. The only thing I really liked about it was making MIO part of the "core" Level III syllabus, which we probably would have previously been called ASUW.
     
  8. jtmedli

    jtmedli Playing the game... None

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    It has some goods and some bads. Mostly the hour requirements are going to take some very careful and purposeful scheduling to satisfy which I don't see the bigger exped squadrons being able to do. Especially with firescout being dropped on them too. The commodores and the skippers are definitely NOT on the same page. Not to even mention the DRRS-N CSAR requirements for CVW types which pretty much makes having 2 JOs as 3is a requirement to make the boxes turn green.
     
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  9. hscs

    hscs Registered User None

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    What is the difference of opinion between Wings and squadrons?
     
  10. jtmedli

    jtmedli Playing the game... None

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    Commodore - "JO's aren't supposed to make level 3i out of their first fleet tour"

    What really happens - JOs who don't make 3i basically don't nom. They certainly don't go FRS or Weapons Schools which are the XO/CO factories. It's perfectly normal for JOs who were 3/2/2 (now 3 overwater) to not even get flying orders and subsequently never fly again.

    So it's pretty clear that the CO rankings and nom cycles are reflecting level 3 quals as a requirement while the Commodores seem to think it's not an expectation.
     
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  11. Brett327

    Brett327 Well-Known Member Super Moderator None Contributor

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    How is your CDRE integrated into your nom process? Also, from my perspective/experience in TACAIR, failure to get a Level 3 qual in your first tour is a show stopper for follow on flying tours. It's also, under the right circumstances, grounds for a FNAEB. Is this not the case in the RW community? Is HAC and Level 3 a different thing altogether?
     
  12. IKE

    IKE Nerd Whirler None

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    Yes, HAC and LVL 3 are independent quals.

    BUT, speaking from the way HS used to run, ASW and usually SUW LVL 3 were earned concurrently with HAC. PR and SOF would follow, and were not earned by or offered to every JO. So, the distinction is overwater vs. overland quals. It is, therefore, an HSC issue. HSM bubbas earn only overwater quals.

    HS was essentially an overwater mission set with the option for overland.
    HC (of recent history) was essentially overwater support (nontactical).

    The acquisition of the CH-60S marinized blackhawk and decision to merge the HS and HC communities got us where we are today: an aircraft a little lacking in SUW skills and devoid of ASW skills operated by a bipolar community. Reduction in flight hours has just worsened it.
     
  13. SynixMan

    SynixMan Professional CCX Wrangler Contributor None

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    HAC just means sign for the aircraft plus absolute basic missions (SAR/LOG). Mission Level Quals are separate but usually track with HAC stuff until Level 3 cards that require multi aircraft dedicated flights. CVW (what was legacy HS) and Expeditionary (what was HC) emphasize different quals based on their squadron tasking. Historically CVW squadrons had an easier time getting people more quals due to smaller wardrooms and their DRRS-N requirement to cover all the warfare areas for the CVW.

    CDREs (with NAWDC) own our Weapons and Tactics Instruction. There were a few Class As involving crews crews "qualified" on paper breaking helicopters circa 2012-14 and the CDREs clamped down with flight hour and landing currency mins to mitigate. This, combined with sequester flight hour restrictions, made things tough for first tour JOs to get quals in all warfare areas. Skippers, as is their purview, put their best JOs on track to get these, but with so many hours going to currency vice training the next people, it became harder to get. Then a follow-on revision to our qual instruction that made the overland quals more difficult to attain for first tour JOs, as was the CDREs design. They are hard missions to get proficiency in, let alone instruct. This is the IIIi stuff that's mentioned.

    First tour JOs are still managing to get those advanced quals, but it's becoming even more of a have/have not situation and COs are having to pick their winners even earlier. My nom round was 75ish people for 30ish production flying jobs, and nothing beyond a Top 3 EP was sniffing those 30 spots. FRS/WWS/NAWDC were obviously taking those top folks with quals.

    Life ain't fair, but pumping more than half your trained manpower out the door to never fly again seems kinda silly. And I say this as one of the lucky ones who's still flying.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  14. Brett327

    Brett327 Well-Known Member Super Moderator None Contributor

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    Interesting, that's helpful.
     
  15. BACONATOR

    BACONATOR Well-Known Member Contributor None

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    CO factory... or you can do what I saw on this last FTS board and have a SWTI helo pilot come join the dark side of VR.... haha. EFF you active Navy career path!
     

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