EP-3 in China Discussion

[bunk22]

Not to turn this into an anti-Osborne rant thread, but my wife had him as an instructor at VT-10 and said he was very impressed with himself and believed his feces were not odiferous. Good on him for saving the plane, and I don't want to monday-morning quarterback, but landing your plane in the country you were spying on? He gets a below for headwork.

I'll call you on your monday morning QB'ing and disagree with you. Non-war time, ditch at sea and risk your crew or land in China risking your equipment, easy decision for this aircraft commander.

As far as books go, Over the Beach by Zalin Grant is an excellent read on fighter/attack pilots and their loved ones from Vietnam. It shows a whole lot of the human drama behind the scenes of flying. Excellent book IMO.

 

[zab1001]

Not to MMQ his desicion......

Ah but you just did...

As far as "I heard..." or "all the P-3 guys said...", the only guys I'd give credence to in regards to this are EP-3 guys.

 

[TurnandBurn55]

(edited)

I loved AirWarriors but I really wished that it could have followed other communitys as well.

Nah, that would have made the book insanely long. I remember reading it in high school and thinking it made flight school sound insurmountable. Now I read it and realize it doesn't even cover the half of it... mostly just the fun stuff... helo dunkers, fam flights, ACM, and carrier quals. Even at that, it's perfect for an uninitiated audience. Covering every pipeline? Nah...

 

[bunk22]

Not to MMQ his desicion... but I don't know of a single P-3 guy that agreed with what he did. No one was able to go into detail, but the jist of what I got from everyone was that he set us back 10 years in intelligence. The Chinese are pro's at reverse engineering...

I wonder how many of those guys have ever ditched? Walked away from a burning aircraft? What's more important, the lives of your crew or the intel equipment on the plane? It's so easy to talk bravado when they weren't there. This isn't quite the cold war or WW III, the importance of that crew's lives outweighed anything else, IMO of course.

 

[A4sForever]

(Aviation books and novels thread most likely isn't the place for this ... but since it's already here ---) I disagree with some of the posters here ... and I am going to be a "Ready-Room Commando", or MMQ as some of you put it. I have spoken to several VQ-1 drivers, and to a man, they think the decision to go into Hainan was wrong ... dead wrong, and they claim they would not have done it. I agree with that call ...

Osborne and his crew did an outstanding job flying the damaged plane -- no doubt. For that -- he and his crew deserve every accolade appropriate to the incident. One thing the Navy is really good at, also, is putting people at risk and just letting them hang out there on a limb, unsupported. USS Pueblo? USS Liberty? Countless reconnaisance aircraft shot down over the decades of the Cold War?

But to take your top $ecret gear, your crew, and deliver them into the lap of the enemy -- the very one you've just been spying on -- and surrender -- to save your own lives? That is where we part company .... TALK IS CHEAP, so you know what this is worth -- but I would have headed for Hong Kong or the P.I. Could I have made it? Could we/would we/should we ditch ?? There's always a first time to ditch -- you don't practice it. Obviously, I don't know --- but I guess I would have "earned" my pay and done my job and my duty, as I see it. I would not have given myself and my crew over to the Chinese --- now when did that Cold War end, anyway? I missed that one ....

Some of you guys have been in a "risk-aversion" military for too many years and it has shaped your attitudes. LIFE IS NOT CHEAP; but the military is all about risk. Putting your life at risk is unfortunately one of the things you get paid to do ... Was the ditching option -- if you could not make safe harbor -- dismissed because crewmembers would have been lost?? If that's the case, then Lt Osborne and the military establishment have it azz-backwards. I wasn't there; but my gut instinct always was and still is: never surrender as long as I have the ability to resist -- or fly, in this case. Never. Period. What could be more clear?

"Save your crew" above all else? How many more U.S. military personnel have been put at future risk as a result of the HUGE intelligence coup the ChiComs gained?? Where is the "life-saving" there?? The importance of your own and your crew's lives do not "outweigh anything else" ... and that attitude will be a problem in any future conflict. I and my friends have some experience in this ... there are things more improtant than self.

If you don't like this, that's O.K. .... it's still a great country and a big Navy ...

 

[bunk22]

(Aviation books and novels thread most likely isn't the place for this ... but since it's already here ---) I disagree with some of the posters here ... and I am going to be a "Ready-Room Commando", or MMQ as some of you put it. I have spoken to several VQ-1 drivers, and to a man, they think the decision to go into Hainan was wrong ... dead wrong, and they claim they would not have done it. I agree with that call ...[/IMG]

Who were the pilots of VQ-1? I mean, what were their names? PM if you don't want to mention their names publicly. I'm just curious.


B]B]But to take your top $ecret gear, your crew, and deliver them into the lap of the enemy -- the very one you've just been spying on -- and surrender -- to save your own lives? That is where we part company .... TALK IS CHEAP, so you know what this is worth -- but I would have headed for Hong Kong or the P.I. Could I have made it? Could we/would we/should we ditch ?? There's always a first time to ditch -- you don't practice it. Obviously, I don't know --- but I guess I would have "earned" my pay and done my job and my duty, as I see it. I would not have given myself and my crew over to the Chinese --- now when did that Cold War end, anyway? I missed that one ....[/B]

I agree, talk is cheap. Would of, should of, could of. Unless you were there, flying that mission, that damaged aircraft, talk of what you would have done is cheap.

Some of you guys have been in a "risk-aversion" military for too many years and it has shaped your attitudes. LIFE IS NOT CHEAP; but the military is all about risk. Putting your life at risk is unfortunately one of the things you get paid to do ... Was the ditching option -- if you could not make safe harbor -- dismissed because crewmembers would have been lost?? If that's the case, then Lt Osborne and the military establishment have it azz-backwards. I wasn't there; but my gut instinct always was and still is: never surrender as long as I have the ability to resist -- or fly, in this case. Never. Period. What could be more clear?

Never surrender as long as you have that ability I agree with. I especially agree with that rule when we are at war. However, we were not and are not at war with China, at least not the last time I heard. Sure, we were spying on them but we spy on many nations, some of which are much friendlier than China. IMO, ditching was the absolute last option, landing on the nearest hard surface runway was first. Like I said, things would be different if we were at war with China.

U]"Save your crew" above all else? How many more U.S. military personnel have been put at future risk as a result of the HUGE intelligence coup the ChiComs gained[/U]?? Where is the "life-saving" there?? The importance of your own and your crew's lives do not "outweigh anything else" ... and that attitude will be a problem in any future conflict. I and my friends have some experience in this ... there are things more improtant than self.

Okay, what intel did the Chinese gain? Has it been brought to light exactly how we have been put at risk with what the Chinese gained from that EP-3? What were the standing orders for the EP-3 crew in this scenario as well? Did the pilot violate orders by landing in China as opposed to ditching the aircraft in the water? I read Osbourne's book as well and I don't remember him mentioning anything to that effect and maybe for obvious reasons. Once again, my attitude concerning this would change if we were at war with the Chinese but being that we were not, his life saving landing was the appropriate thing to do in this situation.

Hey, like you said, if you don't like my way of thinking, it's a big Navy :icon_smil

 

[zab1001]

BTW- Thread split.

Oh and guys, here's the deal, talk all you want about the incident.

Not about what you think of the guy personally or what someone told you one time about his personality . (not directed at Bunk or A4s...)


I'm gonna edit all posts with that stuff, previous and future.

libel...slander...

now i'm goin to ORM my plans for a bottle of Johhny Walker

 

[A4sForever]

No can do on the names bunk22 -- and since it's been nearly four years, it's problematical whether or not you would know any of them -- some are gone. As I do not know you personally, you don't really think I am going to give you their names, do you? It might look "macho" on Airwarriors.com to call me out on the names, but it's unprofessional in my view -- sorry. I would not give them to you even if I could "remember" back 4 years, shall we say. HEY, That's it !!! I can't remember their names ... I am sure you will understand ... if not -- so what?? It's a "big" Navy, as we agreed. "Starbuck's", Friday O'club, across the bar @ Hale Koa, and guys I fly with -- acquaintances -- I guess that's "several"?? But no names, sorry -- and I would be highly ticked if someone gave you my name, also .... or maybe I'm just making all this up !!! :icon_wink

Right -- TALK IS CHEAP ... but it's all in one's mindset -- either you have a "warrior mindset" or you don't -- and yours is different than mine -- opinion --- and this IS an opinion forum, correct? EOD ... (E-nd O-f D-iscussion on that point) or we'll just get all hot and nasty and foaming.

We've always been "at war" with the ChiComs ... stick your head in that sand-box at your own risk ... if surrendering was ROE or SOP, we would have heard all about it as Pentagon make-nice, politically-correct justification, believe it!

The ChiComs gained BILLIONS worth of intel --- another friend of mine in the "business" told me some of the costs and compromises involved -- and no, I am not going to PM his name, either. Look around on the internet -- the information you seek is readily available. It sadly compares with the intel coup taken in the Pueblo debacle. Only this one could have been avoided by the final act of flying the other direction and doing one's duty -- there's that opinion stuff again.

The bottom line -- opinion --- you put self over the (this) mission. Don't give me that stuff about "saving the crew" -- the crew was there to do the mission just like the guy driving the airplane. There were other "options" and giving up to the enemy should not be one if you can fly -- the NAV publicly stated on NUW arrival that it was "the quickest and easiest solution". That "solution" would never be considered in my cockpit. If you don't think the ChiComs are an "enemy", please refer to the aforementioned sandbox for your denial pleasure. And as you state -- you weren't even there and neither was I -- no adrenaline, if you will ... Your mindset, however, seems to me a bad place to start.

Sooooo ... where does that leave us? You would have landed on Hainan and been second-guessed forever by "Ready-Room" Commandos. I, to the best of my knowledge, would not -- on both counts. I guess it just goes to that personal level of how we respectively see our duty. Life is hard, sometimes and so are the choices ... and then you live with the consequences.

A4s ... OUT

 

[A4sForever]

BTW- Thread split.
now i'm goin to ORM my plans for a bottle of Johhny Walker

Johnny Walker? I'm nursing myself with "fresh" squeezed Margaritas @ NUW ... and listening to the Spanish language station -- go figure -- atmosphere??? :icon_rast

 

[bunk22]

No can do on the names bunk22 -- and since it's been nearly four years, it's problematical whether or not you would know any of them -- some are gone. As I do not know you personally, you don't really think I am going to give you their names, do you? It might look "macho" on Airwarriors.com to call me out on the names, but it's unprofessional in my view -- sorry. I would not give them to you even if I could "remember" back 4 years, shall we say. HEY, That's it !!! I can't remember their names ... I am sure you will understand ... if not -- so what?? It's a "big" Navy, as we agreed. "Starbuck's", Friday O'club, across the bar @ Hale Koa, and guys I fly with -- acquaintances -- I guess that's "several"?? But no names, sorry -- and I would be highly ticked if someone gave you my name, also .... or maybe I'm just making all this up !!! :icon_wink [/IMG]

I had no doubt you wouldn't or couldn't give names. Easy to remember what they told you but not the names, I gotcha. Hey man, everyone knows somebody and that always makes them an expert. Such as:

The ChiComs gained BILLIONS worth of intel --- another friend of mine in the "business" told me some of the costs and compromises involved -- and no, I am not going to PM his name, either. Look around on the internet -- the information you seek is readily available. It sadly compares with the intel coup taken in the Pueblo debacle. Only this one could have been avoided by the final act of flying the other direction and doing one's duty -- there's that opinion stuff again.

I do however know Pat Honeck. It's been a long time since I've spoken with him but I bet he has a different perspective on the issue. But then again, knowing him and his perspective doesn't make me an expert.


The bottom line -- opinion --- you put self over the (this) mission. Don't give me that stuff about "saving the crew" -- the crew was there to do the mission just like the guy driving the airplane. There were other "options" and giving up to the enemy should not be one if you can fly -- the NAV publicly stated on NUW arrival that it was "the quickest and easiest solution". That "solution" would never be considered in my cockpit. If you don't think the ChiComs are an "enemy", please refer to the aforementioned sandbox for your denial pleasure. And as you state -- you weren't even there and neither was I -- no adrenaline, if you will ... Your mindset, however, seems to me a bad place to start.

Sooooo ... where does that leave us? You would have landed on Hainan and been second-guessed forever by "Ready-Room" Commandos. I, to the best of my knowledge, would not -- on both counts. I guess it just goes to that personal level of how we respectively see our duty. Life is hard, sometimes and so are the choices ... and then you live with the consequences.

A4s ... OUT http://www.hmm-364.org/nawings.jpg[/B]

You're opinion is wrong on two points. For one, I don't know for sure what I would have done. I do however applaud the man for saving his crew. I do believe that his first priority was to land that plane, not to ditch it, so perhaps I might have done the same. Secondly, my mindset is exactly where it needs to be, safety of my crew. Now during actual wartime, the shooting kind of war, ditching over becoming a Chinese POW would make sense and in the end, probably save lives. Now I know it's easy to be all guts and glory behind a computer screen. There's no need to try and impress me or anybody else by bravado on the net. I thinking you should leave that talk for the ready room, the O club or perhaps an old timers convention. Then you can let people judge you by the size of your stories.

 

[Blutonski816]

I'm kind of split on the two...

Yes, the crew's survival is a a key factor as to why Osborn brought the plane down in Hainan.
Yes, the fact that he Let an EP-3 come into China's possession was a kick in the nuts for us.

But I'm going to put in what I was taught when I was a wee JROTC cadet:
When asked what the primary goal of a Leader is, I incorrectly said "to look out for the welfare of their subordinates."
My Instructor, a retired 0-5 shook his head and pounded this into our heads:

"Primary goal of a Leader is Successful Completion of the Mission."

I know I'm going to take heat for this, but I'm going to go wiht A4s on this...
Wartime or not, the Mission comes first, not the people...

 

[A4sForever]

There's no need to try and impress me or anybody else by bravado on the net. I thinking you should leave that talk for the ready room, the O club or perhaps an old timers convention. Then you can let people judge you by the size of your stories.

If you "had no doubt" I wouldn't give you their names ... then .. why ask ??? Oh, yeah -- that "macho" thing I referred to ..... unprofessional.

By the way, Will Rogers never met Pat Honeck. Or bunk22 for that matter .....

But then you just had to take it a step lower and make it personal, didn't you?? You did say you're a Naval Officer, right?? Funny -- "back in the day" as many here refer to it -- we never even used the term "warrior" -- no need to ..... "warrior" was Indians or some such.

But then, since you choose to "judge (me) by the size of (my) stories" ... uh -- what stories? -- I thought this was all EP-3 in China "opinion" --- no "stories" there. Oh, you mean my "other stories". Sounds like someone is a little, what --- Envious?? Not at all becoming from a "Super" moderator ...

How's this for a story: We ALL know why we fly what we fly -- don't we, "bunk". Fly safe in that COD of yours ... and don't worry about diverting -- if the "balloon" ever does go up -- at least you know you'll survive long enough to make a future "old-timer's" convention. How's that? Insulting enough for you?

Get a life, Det O-in-C ... I have ...

 

[TurnandBurn55]

First off... n/m

Secondly-- so what if we're not in a shooting war with China right now? We may well be in a shooting war with Iran or North Korea, two countries who they're very cozy with. The rationalization that 'we're not at war right now, so who cares about keeping secrets?' is very short-sighted, IMO.

The Soviets weren't our enemy in WWII... I guess it's no big deal then as to what British/American spies gave them at the time, right? Boy... things change quickly over a matter of a few years, right?

Point being that it's not the decision of an O-3 to say "The Chinese aren't our enemy, so it's no big deal if they get our secrets". Those decisions are made by people a little higher than our paygrade... and it's not our prerogative to second-guess it.

 

[bunk22]

If you "had no doubt" I wouldn't give you their names ... then .. why ask ??? Oh, yeah -- that "macho" thing I referred to ..... unprofessional.

By the way, Will Rogers never met Pat Honeck. Or bunk22 for that matter .....

But then you just had to take it a step lower and make it personal, didn't you?? You did say you're a Naval Officer, right?? Funny -- "back in the day" as many here refer to it -- we never even used the term "warrior" -- no need to ..... "warrior" was Indians or some such.

But then, since you choose to "judge (me) by the size of (my) stories" ... uh -- what stories? -- I thought this was all EP-3 in China "opinion" --- no "stories" there. Oh, you mean my "other stories". Sounds like someone is a little, what --- Envious?? Not at all becoming from a "Super" moderator ...

How's this for a story: We ALL know why we fly what we fly -- don't we, "bunk". Fly safe in that COD of yours ... and don't worry about diverting -- if the "balloon" ever does go up -- at least you know you'll survive long enough to make a future "old-timer's" convention. How's that? Insulting enough for you?

Get a life, Det O-in-C ... I have ...

C'mon now old timer!! I called you out on what I felt was some BSing on your part and you're angry. Nothing personal. I enjoy many of your stories. I just don't believe anybody on this site can second guess what that crew did, especially while sitting behind a computer screen. Believe me dude, insult all you want, I can take it....afterall, I'm COD guy :icon_smil and I did away with the ego a long time ago.

 

[bunk22]

"Primary goal of a Leader is Successful Completion of the Mission."

I know I'm going to take heat for this, but I'm going to go wiht A4s on this...
Wartime or not, the Mission comes first, not the people...

That's a good point. However, not every mission exists in a vaccum. IMO, the mission was over as soon as the J-8 hit the EP-3. At that point, it became a mission of survival. Now if they were under orders to never let that aircraft fall into Chinese hands, then perhaps the survival of he and his crew was definitely second to the mission. In that case, set the aircraft down as soon as possible and hope for the best would have been the order of the day. Of course that's a what if and we could play that game all day long.