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NEWS Big surprise, OBOGS back in the news.

Angry

NFO in Jax
None
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/27/...lots-navy.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimesatwar

In about a year we've gone from no identifiable root-cause to knowing exactly what the root cause is. Did our engineers somehow get smarter, or did someone finally decide to start taking the issue seriously - and if so, why'd that take so long?

Part of me is just happy there is a fix for all the guys that have to worry about not being able to breathe during flights. The other half is wondering what the fuck is going to happen to the companies that make these components now that they have an identifiable cause - something that cost us lives and millions of dollars of equipment.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
Surprisingly decent summary and none of the comments (so far) greatly disappoint- there are even a few decent comments among the usual dumb ones.

NYT missed the bullseye with a basic technical definition: "a physiological condition caused by low levels of oxygen in the bloodstream [sic]" and this is something most all of the media have been mis-reporting the whole time. In this context, it's your brain, not your bloodstream. Even AvLeak got this detail wrong a few times.

In about a year we've gone from no identifiable root-cause to knowing exactly what the root cause is. Did our engineers somehow get smarter, or did someone finally decide to start taking the issue seriously - and if so, why'd that take so long?
Public embarrassment and Congress put a boot in the ass of our collective senior leadership, that's what happened. I think most of the little people had the wherewithal and technical knowhow, but they lacked the direction to make a coordinated effort.

I gotta hand it to you VTJ JOs, after the ORM-out last spring, the big rolling snowball started to get really big. Before that moment, the hazreps and mishap reports that had been getting released at the cyclic rate weren't sufficient motivation for anybody in a position of authority at NAVAIR, NAVSAFCEN, or NAVAIRFOR to take decisive action; same story with our USAF brethren. BZ, ladies and gentlemen!

Transparency is healthy for the Republic!
 

UInavy

Registered User
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Before that moment, the hazreps and mishap reports that had been getting released at the cyclic rate weren't sufficient motivation for anybody in a position of authority at NAVAIR, NAVSAFCEN, or NAVAIRFOR to take decisive action; same story with our USAF brethren.

I agree and think that this is absolutely inexcusable. Though it will never happen, I think those organizations should be held to account and explain how they would address a future issue of this severity so that it doesn't take JOs going to the press to get it fixed. Both NAVAIR and NAVSAFCEN were revealed to be particularly impotent over the last few years. It begs the question of why large parts of their internal mechanizations exist if they can't perform their assigned roles in an efficient manner.
 

IKE

Nerd Whirler
pilot
New York Times Article said:
In earlier decades, fighter jets carried liquid oxygen onboard for pilots flying at high altitudes. But over the past 20 years, both services have been transitioning to a system that collects air from outside the aircraft and filters nitrogen from it until it is safely breathable. The change was an attractive safety feature because liquid oxygen can be a fire hazard, and the new system offered, in theory, a functionally limitless supply of air. But the newer system also lacked sensors to monitor the air quality and had no alarm that could alert pilots to any problems.
This, to me, is a classic example of NAVAIR "fixing" a high-severity, low-probability risk by implementing a system that brings moderate severity, medium-probability risk (e.g., crashworthy Helo seats, heavy survival vests, fireproof gloves, etc.)
 

sevenhelmet

Low calorie attack from the Heartland
pilot
This, to me, is a classic example of NAVAIR "fixing" a high-severity, low-probability risk by implementing a system that brings moderate severity, medium-probability risk (e.g., crashworthy Helo seats, heavy survival vests, fireproof gloves, etc.)

Meh. Maybe that's what NAVAIR thought they were doing. Trouble is, OBOGS/ECS/mask fit problems can still be a high-severity problem.

We had a visit from the PEAT team in Lemoore a few weeks ago, which ended up being surprisingly informative. Based on their presented findings, I'm actually more confident in OBOGS than I was previously, but I still have serious misgivings about the reliability of ECS and the fit/reliability of the oxygen mask, not to mention the ability of O-level PRs and AMEs to troubleshoot and diagnose issues with both systems.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
fit/reliability of the oxygen mask,
I still use the old school MBU-12 mask. Tried the newer one years ago and hated it. I was also asymptotic in both of the hypoxia type PEs that I’ve been involved in. I presume there’s info on type of mask used in the PE database, though I imagine that since the MBU-20s are so prevalent, it would be hard to draw any meaningful conclusions.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
I fought hard to get an MBU-12. The -20 fits like garbage and is uncomfortable.

I assume I will have to go through the same battle when I get back in a T-6.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I fought hard to get an MBU-12. The -20 fits like garbage and is uncomfortable.

I assume I will have to go through the same battle when I get back in a T-6.
They're available in the supply system again if your PRs know how to get them - though they may be an open purchase item. I had acquired a couple spares over the years. A good PR is a wonderful thing.
 

Angry

NFO in Jax
None
They're available in the supply system again if your PRs know how to get them - though they may be an open purchase item. I had acquired a couple spares over the years. A good PR is a wonderful thing.

"Sir, that item isn't currently available in the system"

"Got in PR1, thanks for checking. Hey by the way, do you have any place I can leave this 12 pack of IPA?"

"Yes sir, right next to the sewing machine. Oh by the way I think I found a work around..."

I loved my PR's.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
The case of beer I brought to my favorite contract PR at the paraloft at whiting probably didn’t hurt.

I’ve still got my old one as a backup, too.
 

LFDtoUSMC

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
"Sir, that item isn't currently available in the system"

"Got in PR1, thanks for checking. Hey by the way, do you have any place I can leave this 12 pack of IPA?"

"Yes sir, right next to the sewing machine. Oh by the way I think I found a work around..."

I loved my PR's.

It boggles my mind that we have to bribe people to do their job. Lunacy and sheer frustration are the most common experience in our FE shops whenever you try and get stuff. Hell, I was in my squadron for almost 18 months before I was able to get more than 2 flight suits. Here is an idea, just do your job. Imagine if you had to bribe the JO's to do their job, what would the fallout from that be?

"Yeah.....sorry Sir, I can't get this DRRS report done on time. Oh, a 6-pack you say...sure thing boss, I'll get right on it"

But it's SOP to give a 12-pack to the FE dudes/dude-ettes to do their job....FFS.

(I can kind of see this being the status quo with contractors, but it shouldn't be for AD types.)

//

Glad they are well on the way to a solution for the OBOGS debacle.
 

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
The new mask is terrible. I've suffered through it for about 10 years now, and I have a permanent red spot/bruise on one side of the bridge of my nose due to it. Multiple tries at cutting it down, trying different sizes, etc. It is just a crap product that the DoD bought from the bottom bidder, like everything else they do. I absolutely am certain that the lack of mask seal that this crap mask achieves is the reason for some % of PE's. Anytime I'm above 30k feet, I tighten the bell fittings all the way up, and tighten down the straps as far as they will go.......literally to the point where I will have an imprint on my face post flight for over an hour. I have 2 choices in that scenario.......1) fly with the mic inside my mouth and reduced flow due to physical blockage (not to mention the blow off valve's habit of sticking, or the hose kinking and cutting off flow completely under G), or 2) accept a mask that doesn't seal, and is basically doing nothing for me.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
It boggles my mind that we have to bribe people to do their job. Lunacy and sheer frustration are the most common experience in our FE shops whenever you try and get stuff. Hell, I was in my squadron for almost 18 months before I was able to get more than 2 flight suits. Here is an idea, just do your job. Imagine if you had to bribe the JO's to do their job, what would the fallout from that be?

"Yeah.....sorry Sir, I can't get this DRRS report done on time. Oh, a 6-pack you say...sure thing boss, I'll get right on it"

But it's SOP to give a 12-pack to the FE dudes/dude-ettes to do their job....FFS.

(I can kind of see this being the status quo with contractors, but it shouldn't be for AD types.)

//

Glad they are well on the way to a solution for the OBOGS debacle.

I’m with you on this, and my personal opinion is it comes down to knowing your people.

I’ve never had to bribe the PRs with anything to get stuff, and I’ve gotten a lot of sweet gear from them. I like to think it’s because I’ve spent time in their shop getting to know them vice just showing up and asking for stuff.
 
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