NEWS Air Force leadership talks frankly about pilot retention

[Deleted member 24525]

Not even worth it. 35k a year?
If you get out as an O-3, by year TWO of a legacy you can make more than O3 + bonus pay..AND you get the seniority gain to go along with it.
No way in hell would I take that bonus...then again, I've never taken a bonus.
I've got friends crushing it -making 13-15k a month on year 2-3 pay depending on the airline. And on top of that? No GMT, no six lean sigma six, no other BS.
The gains in quality of life ALONE are worth more than 35k a year!

 

[phrogdriver]

Did everyone who joined the service get conned into it? Because apparently it's just fucking horrible 24/7.

 

[HuggyU2]

No, it's all good, sevenhelmet. I appreciate the good spirited mocking of the AF. It took me a while to understand the some cultural things about it, but overall I get a good laugh out of it.

As for your post, I mistakenly thought you were mostly serious. Nothing ruffled... I simply wanted to state my position of opposition. I think I am generally pretty good at reading the sarcasm on this site, but that's twice in 3 weeks I've been off the mark. The blame lies with me.

Back to your regularly scheduled jousting and bashing...

 

[scoolbubba]

Did everyone who joined the service get conned into it? Because apparently it's just fucking horrible 24/7.

24/7? Nah. 18-20/7? Yes. Getting woke up at 0245 on a non-duty Sunday because an officer somewhere couldn't figure out how to call SATO and rearrange their flight home...not conducive to a good work/life balance. My iPhone goes on do not disturb at 2200 until 0600 now because I'm tired of dealing with tikki tack bullshit at all hours with no respect for my personal life or time away from work.

QOL is huge, and it sucks right now. The lack of discernible strategy in the quagmires we've been mired in for the duration of my service notwithstanding, there's no breather once you come back from a deployment or a detachment. Add in uprooting your family every 2-4 years, plus diminishing returns on the purchasing power of your compensation, and I think anyone with the option to jump to civvie street would be foolish to stay past their initial obligation unless they really enjoy what they're doing.

Airlines hiring is only exacerbating what is already a negative feedback loop of not having enough people to cover all the jobs the staffs have invented to protect their existence, so the workers in a squadron end up with more and more of the load.

69 bucks a day isn't worth it. I will gladly take the pay cut and loss of job security for 2 years for a chance to control my future. At this point, the reserves don't even look like a good deal.

 

[Jim123]

Don't know how you guys find time to grouse about these things. Has everyone completed their ESAMS Monthly Safety Talks? The clock is ticking and you don't want your command to have red squares when everyone else's squares are green. The safety topic for June is "Walking in the Dark." I guess if we don't counsel our grownups, about the perils of wearing dark clothing and walking down the middle of the road at night, then America's enemies win. It's not just about deep frying frozen turkeys and where the fire extinguishers go in the workplace.

Speaking of invented jobs to protect invented jobs' existence...

 

[Uncle Fester]

I would advise against dismissing the Reserves out of hand. One, the nonsense of active duty life is largely absent in the Reserves. Yes, there's absurdities, but in general they recognize that as a Reservist you fit the Navy in around the rest of your life, not the other way around like on AD. Two, at the moment things in the majors are good but that's not guaranteed to last. I've known lots and lots of guys in the Reserves who got caught short by the post-9/11 furloughs, or got out in '03-'05 to make a killing in real estate. And don't discount the pension and benefits - not as good as an Active retirment, but guaranteed to be there and a hell of a lot better than nothing.

 

[sevenhelmet]

No, it's all good, sevenhelmet. I appreciate the good spirited mocking of the AF. It took me a while to understand the some cultural things about it, but overall I get a good laugh out of it.

As for your post, I mistakenly thought you were mostly serious. Nothing ruffled... I simply wanted to state my position of opposition. I think I am generally pretty good at reading the sarcasm on this site, but that's twice in 3 weeks I've been off the mark. The blame lies with me.

Back to your regularly scheduled jousting and bashing...

You defended your service from an outsider. I would expect nothing less.

My $0.02: It's hard to read about guys getting out and making tons of money and loving life in the airlines, knowing that I'm committed to staying in. I recently had a discussion with a friend about it- he'd run the numbers and told me that unless you're going to make O-6, the money is in favor of getting out early. That was kind of a reality check. But then, it's hard to imagine not flying grey jets every day, too. I have no regrets about my chosen path, because I know if I was getting out, I'd always wonder- despite money and QOL- what I could have done if I stayed in. I might not be making airline money, but I can comfortably support a family of 4 on one income, while saving for retirement and working toward a pension. Not that I begrudge anyone making the individual decision to get out now, but if the economy tanks like it did in 2008, I wonder how this discussion would change.

This business might get difficult sometimes, but I ain't done yet. That said, I'm keeping in touch with my friends who get out, to get a read on how things are going for them.

 

[phrogdriver]

Do what's right for you. I think there's some sanctimoniousness that goes on in both directions. There are the people who act as if it's your responsibility to stay in the military no matter how much you don't like it anymore, because of some sense of duty. I've written about it before. I think everyone has a duty to do some kind of service to his or her community or country, not in a draft sense, but in terms of moral obligation. Doing your initial obligation more than covers that. If you're not happy, move on. Do great things somewhere else.

There's also this weird vibe I get from others who've gotten out that seems as if they think everyone who sticks around in the Navy or Marine Corps is some kind of chump or brainwashed company man. That's apparent a little bit here, and overwhelmingly, to an absolutely disturbing level, at IWAGR. There are some awesome things about flying and serving in the military in general that make it worthwhile for a lot of folks.

Honestly, when I left the military I flew full time doing fairly tactical stuff. It wasn't the airlines, but that's not my point, because I really was never that interested in that life anyway. I realized that the best parts about flying in the military for me weren't flying low on a VR or landing in an LZ, but the challenges and the people I worked with. In the military, even after nearly 20 years, there was always a qual or code or mission I hasn't done yet, and it was cool getting to work with people I genuinely liked for the most part. Once I was fully qualified at my new job, I realized there was no more room to grow for the next 15 years until I retired again, so I jumped ship to a new gig, where I'm not flying, but I am forced to learn something new every day, and I'm much happier.

 

[RHINOWSO]

I would advise against dismissing the Reserves out of hand. One, the nonsense of active duty life is largely absent in the Reserves. Yes, there's absurdities, but in general they recognize that as a Reservist you fit the Navy in around the rest of your life, not the other way around like on AD. Two, at the moment things in the majors are good but that's not guaranteed to last. I've known lots and lots of guys in the Reserves who got caught short by the post-9/11 furloughs, or got out in '03-'05 to make a killing in real estate. And don't discount the pension and benefits - not as good as an Active retirment, but guaranteed to be there and a hell of a lot better than nothing.

Agreed. If someone has 8-10-ish years in, even going IRR to do coloring books is worth it. Keeps you off the current MOB opportunities as well. SelRes can be worth it if you are a hardware guy and exempt from MOBing, otherwise it isn't worth the $15-20K/year to be on Navy Welfare, watching paint dry at the NOSC or whatever else you have to do to get paid, just waiting for the inevitable "put your life on hold for 6-24 months" MOB notification.

 

[BigRed389]

This is the point I was trying to make with Spekkio but when the other 1/2 or 2/3 of the Navy doesn't want to listen and wants to quote our O4/5 selection rates to us is when we have a problem that isn't getting solved until operations stop being able to happen because there's not enough aviation to support the need. The other side of that problem is that SWOs run a fair portion of the Navy and when their idea of the problem is "oh the fly boys are just bitching about X or Y again" (see Spekkios post) is when you can pretty much give up any chance of getting anything fixed.

Have you (or any other JO in your wardroom/ready room) ever considered writing an article?
This isn't me trying to be a snarky asshole, it's an honest suggestion.

Everybody knows the stereotypes about how fucked up SWO life is.
What's probably not well understood is that...things have actually probably changed for the better. There are more opportunities, the way DH screening is done is different, there are actually efforts made to define viable career paths early on, bonus went up, you can do tours with industry, etc. In my post-SWO life, I've worked with multiple ships, and they are in general, much more satisfied with QOL than I remember my wardrooms being.

Before I moved on, I seem to recall quite a few Proceedings articles from quite a few JO SWO's about what they saw as problems, and some ideas to fix things.
PERS reached out to wardrooms across the Fleet and gave the opportunity to provide feedback on a few occasions.

I'm not saying everything was solved, they've actually created new problems that haven't come due yet, and I still take anything out of Millington with an entire shaker full of salt, but progress was definitely made, and some of the suggestions made were actually implemented.

Just a thought. Maybe the guys behind you will benefit. I wouldn't expect the senior guys to make the changes you want without feedback from junior levels.

 

[HackerF15E]

But then, it's hard to imagine not flying grey jets every day, too.

@huggyu2 can attest that when I was on active duty, I was a dyed-in-the-wool fighter pilot who, like you, couldn't really wrap my mind around a career that didn't involve fast jets and tactical flying.

I'm here to tell ya, I absolutely love my second career in the airlines...because my life is no longer about the job. The job scratches my basic flying itch, but more importantly allows me the income and time off to actually spend time with my family and indulge in my hobbies (which involves flying the airplanes I want to fly for fun most of the time).

It is a righteous tradeoff. I honestly wouldn't have believed the change in my outlook if I hadn't experienced it myself, but it happened.

Every time I drive up to Nellis and see a 4-ship of Raptors, Lightnings, Eagles, Vipers, Hogs, etc, flying up initial, I have that initial excitement in my gut which is shortly followed by that feeling that I deeply miss doing that for a living. But that feeling of missing it is quickly replaced by remembering all of the associated ass pain that came with the job and its costs to my family and personal life...and then I don't miss it at all.

 

[Randy Daytona]

I would advise against dismissing the Reserves out of hand. One, the nonsense of active duty life is largely absent in the Reserves. Yes, there's absurdities, but in general they recognize that as a Reservist you fit the Navy in around the rest of your life, not the other way around like on AD. Two, at the moment things in the majors are good but that's not guaranteed to last. I've known lots and lots of guys in the Reserves who got caught short by the post-9/11 furloughs, or got out in '03-'05 to make a killing in real estate. And don't discount the pension and benefits - not as good as an Active retirment, but guaranteed to be there and a hell of a lot better than nothing.

To add to what Fester said, the Reserves will also allow you to manage your airline schedule, especially if you live near the base. Navy has got money available? Go on orders for a month and be home every night. And did you ever see a reservist at the squadron who was in a bad mood? The military is a lot of fun when it is part time and you do not have to put up with nearly as much pain. CNATRA always seemed to have a good chunk of money, not sure if you would want to live near any of the bases - those here who are still SelRes can give you a much more current status of funding in the training command, hardware squadrons or transfers to the ANG. As for the reserve retirements, you can take a look in the reserve section to get a better understanding, suffice it to say it can be more substantial than many people realize - and the survivors' benefits allow your family to receive 55% of your retirement in the event of an untimely demise.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Once again the arbitrator of all knowledges makes a pronouncement out of his ass. In my entire life, I've never seen anyone get as butt hurt and cry as much as you did at IWAGR daily.

What is IWAGR?

"It Was a Good Ride."

Once again you are full of shit.

(blah blah blah, you damn kids get off my lawn)

The one and only rule at IWAGR is that no one gets butt hurt.

Thanks for the detailed explanation of the other forum. Now that the knowledge is out there, we can all stop wondering and resume not giving a shit. Getting back to the thread:

@HackerF15E

I completely understand what you're saying. I think I have one more solid sea tour in me. We'll see where it goes from there- I'm not ruling anything out at this point.

 

[Gatordev]

because my life is no longer about the job. The job scratches my basic flying itch, but more importantly allows me the income and time off to actually spend time with my family and indulge in my hobbies (which involves flying the airplanes I want to fly for fun most of the time).

While I'm not speaking specifically about the airlines (my interest is more in -135 or -91 flying), this is the exact issue I'm having right now. I have two potential job paths that seem realistic to be hired at. One allows for a decent amount of time off but pretty low pay and potentially interesting flying. The other would pay much closer to my current pay check but is also a M-F job with less interesting flying. Both would help scratch the flying itch, but neither is the "perfect" choice.

 

[jtmedli]

Did everyone who joined the service get conned into it? Because apparently it's just fucking horrible 24/7.

Not really speaking directly to the topic of the thread here but I don't think it's horrible 24/7. I still think the best thing I ever did was join the Navy and get my wings. I think the problem is here really boils down to a few major points:

-Quality of life. People get older, have kids/families, and want to have a lifestyle conducive to that. Priorities change and a lot of people realize that this business isn't nearly as much about 'fighting the war and don't great things' as they thought it was.
-Youre more marketable at your MSR as a pilot with a couple thousand hours in your logbook and experience as a military officer than you were as a college boy/flight school nugget.
-Were at a time where there is good money to be made at the majors. 200-250k/year is nothing to scoff at. Especially when it means being at home with the kids.

It's not so much a matter of being "terrible 24/7" but it is clearly a matter of it being "bad enough to make people jump ship without a second thought".