NEWS Air Force leadership talks frankly about pilot retention

[RadicalDude]

Is the current situation great? No - but I do not believe the situation is as bad as your sensational posts. I would not feel the need to gatekeep if you offered hard data to back up your assertions (e.g. 95% of all #1/2 EPs from the FRS / WWS are getting out and going to the airlines) or a way forward to fix the problem. But you offered neither.

I also do not feel qualified to compare the current situation or the T-notch to that of WW2, Korean War, or Vietnam aviators. I do not pretend to understand what it was like to lose an entire squadron out of a CAG, to be spit on after coming home from deployment, or keep my troops from starting race riots. The fact of the matter is that we go through some really tough times - this is one of them. The T-notch was another - where I saw (to name a small few to keep this post from being too long):

-the inability of squadrons to keep aircrew, and maintainers - during a time when you weren't kicked out for failing 3 PFAs or getting 3 x DUIs (so even if you had the flight hours, no one was around to fix the aircraft)
- There was no such thing as a DH board. You went to Pottery Barn, found a mirror to fog, and became an O4/ DH (in every community).
- you didn't have to compete to go to a production tour - you were going production unless you were broken (and this was because we didn't have enough pilots to fill production IP seats)
-I saw top guys get early selected for O4 and then get passed over for O5 because their early promotion set them up for failure because they didn't have a high water DH ticket when they were up for the O5 board
- mission aircraft hot seated between passing boats on deployment
- COs rankings affected by retention data submitted to their ISIC
- The start of the NC rate - (an auto E7 maker at the time) - for a full time person to press people to stay in

It really sucked - but today I see a lot of top officers sticking around and working to prevent us from going toward the issues of the late 90s/pre-9/11, which makes me hopeful. What kept it together through that time were officers who still cared, accepted that it was tough lot, and led to the last day of their MSR or 20-30 year mark. I would hope that you can do the same.

I work just as hard today as th day I joined. Don't worry about that.

If those are your examples of "how bad" things can get... well I've got news for you. We're past that in some areas (if you fog a mirror, you make DH, production tour is a default unless you have a DUI) and heading there in Others.

I don't think I'm being sensational. I think I'm giving a sober assessment of the feeling of many JOs in the fleet. They are not interested in fuck fuck games beyond MSR. They don't think the current conflict is worth staying in and potentially dying over.

I've been downtown over Mosul, back when it was real bad. Literally lit up by spotlights.. King Kong style. I don't blame people for wanting to get out. No matter how many assholes you blow up, it doesn't feel worth it to potentially be burned alive in a cage and have your skipper who counted beans and had no useful tactical knowledge to command give your mom a flag.

 

[RadicalDude]

Your bitching about the pay differences between married and single is the perfect example of what is wrong today. The takeaway from your argument is that everyone has to be 100% the same and a slight difference is unfair. If it's not then you bitch if you think someone has it better than you, even if in reality they don't.

Until you understand that, this discussion is pointless.

Hundreds of thousands of dollars over a career is not a "slight difference." Keep on pumping those kids out. Way more expensive than an iPhone but don't worry... Uncle Sam will cover it.

Sooo... no response. Noted.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Sooo... no response. Noted.

You continue to highlight the "everyone has to be #1" problem that is endemic today. It's sad.

 

[RadicalDude]

You continue to highlight the "everyone has to be #1" problem that is endemic today. It's sad.

SAD!

 

[HAL Pilot]

Hundreds of thousands of dollars over a career is not a "slight difference." Keep on pumping those kids out. Way more expensive than an iPhone but don't worry... Uncle Sam will cover it.

Sooo... no response. Noted.

Hundreds of thousands of dollars difference between married and single?! Bullshit.

 

[RadicalDude]

Hundreds of thousands of dollars difference between married and single?! Bullshit.

BAH: Couple of hundred/month x 20
Sep pay: same
Medical: literally thousands per year per dependent x 20
DLA: ~1000/PCS
CDC, etc.: who knows...

Over a career and retirement...It adds up.

Ask your union rep, I'm sure he understands the power of cumulative dues...

 

[fc2spyguy]

Hundreds of thousands of dollars over a career is not a "slight difference." Keep on pumping those kids out. Way more expensive than an iPhone but don't worry... Uncle Sam will cover it.

Sooo... no response. Noted.

As long as they don't say that I have to stand watch on such and such day so someone can be with their family. The pay part is an incentive, not all in life is fair or equal. But screw the guy that says "You're single, so you get such and such watch . . ."

 

[hscs]

I work just as hard today as th day I joined. Don't worry about that.
I think I'm giving a sober assessment of the feeling of many JOs in the fleet. They are not interested in fuck fuck games beyond MSR. They don't think the current conflict is worth staying in and potentially dying over.

I've been downtown over Mosul, back when it was real bad. Literally lit up by spotlights.. King Kong style. I don't blame people for wanting to get out. No matter how many assholes you blow up, it doesn't feel worth it to potentially be burned alive in a cage and have your skipper who counted beans and had no useful tactical knowledge to command give your mom a flag.

As a former member was fond of saying, - The more things change.....

My peers didn't care for the games that were going on at the end of their MSR.

Most of us have been in really bad places, so let's refrain from comparing 'been there, done that' t-shirts.

We may end up in bad places in the future - if you feel strongly enough, then be the guy that sticks it out so that you are the CO that has the tactical knowledge that gets your squadron through a fight without having to go to a funeral.

 

[HAL Pilot]

BAH: Couple of hundred/month x 20
Sep pay: same
Medical: literally thousands per year per dependent x 20
DLA: ~1000/PCS
CDC, etc.: who knows...

Over a career and retirement...It adds up.

Ask your union rep, I'm sure he understands the power of cumulative dues...

The only thing you listed that is different from any civilian job that is worth a shit is the BAH and separation pay. Maybe worth $75k max over 20 years.

Civilian benefits include medical for spouses and children. This is also not a direct monetary reimbursement so it's not a pay difference.

Civilian job relocation benefits include allowances for spouse and children.

But let's not forget you can get that sex reassignment now. That'll cost more than anything extra a married service member gets.

 

[RadicalDude]

The only thing you listed that is different from any civilian job that is worth a shit is the BAH and separation pay. Maybe worth $75k max over 20 years.

Civilian benefits include medical for spouses and children. This is also not a direct monetary reimbursement so it's not a pay difference.

Civilian job relocation benefits include allowances for spouse and children.

But let's not forget you can get that sex reassignment now. That'll cost more than anything extra a married service member gets.

I'm not comparing civilian to service. I'm comparing service single to service married. What's your point?

Thanks for the non sequitir though...

 

[RadicalDude]

As a former member was fond of saying, - The more things change.....

My peers didn't care for the games that were going on at the end of their MSR.

Most of us have been in really bad places, so let's refrain from comparing 'been there, done that' t-shirts.

We may end up in bad places in the future - if you feel strongly enough, then be the guy that sticks it out so that you are the CO that has the tactical knowledge that gets your square adron through a fight without having to go to a funeral.

I'm not measuring dicks here. If that's what you see, that's on you. Im explaining why people feel the way they do today, in 2017. I don't give a shit of you or big Navy understands.

Why would anyone want to be a skipper? Thanks for asking that question because it's the same one every 26-32 year old flying pointy is. And their (non company) answers may surprise you...

 

[insanebikerboy]

I'm not comparing civilian to service. I'm comparing service single to service married. What's your point?

Thanks for the non sequitir though...

You've lost all respect because now you're bitching about Tricare covering a servicemember's family, not just because a dude with a family gets a few more bucks a month for rent. This isn't money out of your pocket, but yet you're bitching because of insurance coverage covering a family?

With an attitude like that I'm glad you're [apparently] getting out.

 

[RadicalDude]

You've lost all respect because now you're bitching about Tricare covering a servicemember's family, not just because a dude with a family gets a few more bucks a month for rent. This isn't money out of your pocket, but yet you're bitching because of insurance coverage covering a family?

With an attitude like that I'm glad you're [apparently] getting out.

I pay taxes. How is it not money out of my pocket?

I'm just asking the same questions you ask about any other benefit.

Maybe you should just be happy you have the benefits you have...

 

[Python]

And I think this is where these arguments fall apart as folks try to communicate them up the chain. Guys who wear stars obviously value the culture of the Service and are probably the kind of guys who measure QOL differently than an average JO. They probably love/loved being underway and they wouldn't have made flag if they didn't always put in crazy hours. For someone to put in that much consistent effort for so long they need to love what they do. So I'm not sure how you tell someone that the job they love is awful and not worth the sacrifice when they've committed themselves to the opposite of that for 30+yrs.

I'm just going to quote this again so the thread gets back on track.

 

[Spekkio]

Ehh...

While I agree with your overall anecdote, big civilian corporations have the same issues with regard to removing personnel as well. HRs can be a paperwork nightmare with lawsuits and all that come with it. The big difference is that once that person is removed, they are no longer responsible for paying them beyond severance. In the military it takes gross negligence or criminal activity to separate some one and said person is usually tucked away doing menial jobs till retirement at a higher headquarters or low impact unit....or they find a way to retire them early. Smaller more mom and pop establishments...? Yeah they're probably not bound by the high visibility nature of running a multimillion/billion dollar company. So Uncle Fred can shit can people with less impunity than CEO/COO at XYZ corporation.

Larger companies do tend to make internal policies that make it more difficult to sack someone than your local mom and pop shop, but managers at the level of a military DH or CO still have far more control over the composition of their workforce than the military.

I also think you are over-stating the PC/legal issue; I'm willing to bet that if we dug into the wrongful termination cases won by former employees, we'd find legitimate instances of documented unprofessionalism or violation of company policy on behalf of the employer/management in the vast majority of them.