NEWS Air Force leadership talks frankly about pilot retention

[BigRed389]

Is that independence really going to be there in time of war? I haven't been stationed on a CRUDES but what I have seen from a CG CIC in action is the TAO reporting to the force TAO, who didn't do anything without AW's approval. And that has been for exercises and training missions. It's only going to get worse from there.

Depends on what was going on, and what you consider "anything."

Real world example:
MASON playing chicken with the Houthis, pretty good odds at least one of those engagements was entirely driven by the TAO...CO simply can't be there 24/7 and things move too quickly.

Obviously, when we step up to integrated CSG ops, things start to change. But self defense employment doesn't change, and for the rest, it's more about how much AW wants to micromanage the problem. That and geopolitical context.

Although that highlights another point...AW staff is for the most part just the CG's crew. Which increases the level of responsibility for the TAO and AAWC JO's on that ship.
And if the W ship does down, backup W ship is usually a DDG....which means all that responsibility to manage the air battle just got piled on another JO.

But we all work for somebody else when it comes to the blue water CSG fight.

 

[MIDNJAC]

You know this, but for the crowd, "I have a wingman", but he is on the tanker because we are doing yo-yo ops and these guys need ordnance on the ground now so I'm just going to strafe these fools in the tree-line. And when my wingman does show up, he is a LT, just like me. That happens / happened pretty often. The AOC / CAOC / JAOC are not making the CDE / danger close / "should I drop this bomb" decisions that we have been making for a long while now. As LTs. And if you're scared of night traps don't be such a bitch. Or do a mode 1.

The majority of the fighting we've been doing has been with JTACs. That may be changing now but at the end of the day there has been a lot of wartime decision making being done by JTACs on the ground and the LT aircrew in the air.

Fair statements. And I took my night traps like a man, I just didn't like them Mode 1? Pshhhhh……..I've never even flown an auto throttles pass

Alls I'm trying to say is that it bothered me, how much C2, as an extension of the CAOC, was up in our chili during flights in country. And that includes the first days/weeks/months of (what would eventually be called) OIR, where it was literally the wild west in comparison to OEF (at least once the seal was broken on carrying/dropping bombs once again in Iraq). Not trying to say we are equivalent to a TAO, but I'd argue that it isn't as autonomous as any of us would like it to be. That being said, you are right about field CDE/danger close/"should I drop this bomb" i.e. "am i looking at the correct target and will dropping kill some kids and moms?"……which is a question you and only you can answer, and a continuous stress that no SWO has had to deal with since WWII.

 

[hscs]

I'm having a hard time believing that any CO is the most tactically and technically proficient aircrew in any given squadron. Something about sending the headshed downtown on day 1 seems dumb af. Different communities so maybe that has something to do with it. I figure the man probably serves the squadron better by doing "CO stuff" and fending off staff weenies at higher headquarters to let/help us do our jobs better. My perception only though.

So COs like Thach and McCluskey should have stayed on board their ships to hold Spruance's / Fletcher's hand at Midway?

 

[Hotdogs]

So COs like Thach and McCluskey should have stayed on board their ships to hold Spruance's / Fletcher's hand at Midway?

Seriously, that's all you got?

 

[pilot_man]

Not gonna lie, this is probably the most retarded thing I've ever heard.

Why?

I'm having a hard time believing that any CO is the most tactically and technically proficient aircrew in any given squadron. Something about sending the headshed downtown on day 1 seems dumb af. Different communities so maybe that has something to do with it. I figure the man probably serves the squadron better by doing "CO stuff" and fending off staff weenies at higher headquarters to let/help us do our jobs better. My perception only though.

In all honesty, the most tactically proficient guy is the training O that just left his SFTI gig at TOPGUN. Having just left being the creator of the stan. I've seen a Skipper whose previous command was Strike, where he was the airwing training officer. He knew his shit about strikes. He wrote the chapter on them. And he has more of the big picture than a junior guy.

...

All good points. This argument is a moot point though.

Fair statements. And I took my night traps like a man, I just didn't like them Mode 1? Pshhhhh……..I've never even flown an auto throttles pass

No wonder you were scared at night. And dumb too. God gave you autos for a reason.

 

[hscs]

Seriously, that's all you got?

No, I could get plenty nasty, and take your bait, but what would that solve?

As for the topic at hand, I just do not understand why you would think the leader of a unit's place in combat is away from the action.

My point of view- While the CO might not be the most book smart on tactics, he/she probably has the most experience to deal with the unexpected. Day one will always have curve balls, and you need experience in the air to get through.

 

[Hotdogs]

No, I could get plenty nasty, and take your bait, but what would that solve?

As for the topic at hand, I just do not understand why you would think the leader of a unit's place in combat is away from the action.

My point of view- While the CO might not be the most book smart on tactics, he/she probably has the most experience to deal with the unexpected. Day one will always have curve balls, and you need experience in the air to get through.

I'm more in agreement with your last paragraph than anything you've said so far. My point is that there are plenty of pilots who have that experience. Maybe I've biased based off of the amount of combat hours guys have in my community. I'm not saying a CO should take the back seat always but I don't automatically think he should always be the clean up pinch hitter for the squadron. For one, he's probably not tearing up the hotboards like some of his senior Captains and Majors. Secondly, he probably doesn't have intricate knowledge of the newest gizmo they've just strapped on your aircraft. Which has probably changed a lot since he was a LT 15-18 years ago. Third, in our community the CO is typically flying with a boot, which doesn't set him up well to handle things when it goes to shit. The place of a unit's leader is at the point of friction, and for a CO in a combat environment, I think there's a good arguement that it is not always in the air. I would also argue that friction probably varies greatly from a low end fight with shitheads running around in Nikes to a high end fight with peers. I've seen the "I'm the highest ranking dude here so I'm leading this shit and I'm always right" attitude in the air before and it makes me want to puke.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Why?

Because a non-tactical pilot with good cockpit management can herd cats, but a non-tactical pilot isn't going to understand the nuances of what a GBU-38 can do vs a GBU54v5, can I plug airframe x into slot y and still achieve effects required by the GFC, run a PR, do a full DAS push, etc, etc.

A mission lead worth his salt will be able to handle the dynamic situation that is combat, aircraft losses, drops, late overheads, etc, and the unforeseen and how he can best tactically use his assets. From experience in the air and on the ground, it's definitely not just herding cats.

 

[robav8r]

^ @insanebikerboy you're giving me a woody when you talk like that

 

[Jim123]

^ @insanebikerboy you're giving me a woody when you talk like that

Picture of robav8r reading AW

 

[pilot_man]

Because a non-tactical pilot with good cockpit management can herd cats, but a non-tactical pilot isn't going to understand the nuances of what a GBU-38 can do vs a GBU54v5, can I plug airframe x into slot y and still achieve effects required by the GFC, run a PR, do a full DAS push, etc, etc.

A mission lead worth his salt will be able to handle the dynamic situation that is combat, aircraft losses, drops, late overheads, etc, and the unforeseen and how he can best tactically use his assets. From experience in the air and on the ground, it's definitely not just herding cats.

Who said anything about non-tactical pilots? And what does cockpit management have to do with an airwing strike? There is a level of competency that is expected once you get to the point of strike lead. A level 2 JO knows the difference in ordnance. A level 4 JO knows when and how to plug and play aircraft. I don't know why your talking about GFC, PR, and DAS. We are talking about airwing strikes still, correct? You might be out of your lane on this one, but at least you sounded smart.

I said "is more about being able to herd cats." There are obviously tactics involved. But by herding cats I meant: did everyone make it off the USS ship, are all of the tankers airborne? did everyone get their frag? is anyone going to be late? are all the systems up as fragged? how's the weather? can we make it from point a to point b and back to point a and still meet CAG's guidance? You know, all the things you managed when you got your strike lead qual.

 

[Gonzo08]

I'm more in agreement with your last paragraph than anything you've said so far. My point is that there are plenty of pilots who have that experience. Maybe I've biased based off of the amount of combat hours guys have in my community. I'm not saying a CO should take the back seat always but I don't automatically think he should always be the clean up pinch hitter for the squadron. For one, he's probably not tearing up the hotboards like some of his senior Captains and Majors. Secondly, he probably doesn't have intricate knowledge of the newest gizmo they've just strapped on your aircraft. Which has probably changed a lot since he was a LT 15-18 years ago. Third, in our community the CO is typically flying with a boot, which doesn't set him up well to handle things when it goes to shit. The place of a unit's leader is at the point of friction, and for a CO in a combat environment, I think there's a good arguement that it is not always in the air. I would also argue that friction probably varies greatly from a low end fight with shitheads running around in Nikes to a high end fight with peers. I've seen the "I'm the highest ranking dude here so I'm leading this shit and I'm always right" attitude in the air before and it makes me want to puke.

I understand what you're saying about CO's not going down range on Day 1, but our airwing's first day of combat ops in Afghanistan went as follows:
Wave 1:
CAG piloting a F
My CO piloting the old girl Prowler

Wave 2:
My XO riding shotgun in the Wave 2 Prowler.

There was no discussion whether or not my CO and XO would be in the first 2 combat waves, and I'm willing to bet most of the other squadron COs/XOs went in-country on Day 1 also. Whether the same would carry over on Day 1 of a conflict with a more lethal adversary, I don't know, I can only tell you what I witnessed.

 

[Pags]

So does this come down to how a Squadron deploys? On squadrons that send dets (HSC, HSM, HMH, HMLA, etc) out the front office obviously can't be there on Day 1 or Day 100 so the flights will have to be led by the OIC or the JOs. Also, I assume a VP crew could easily end up alone and afraid on Day 1.

 

[CommodoreMid]

Yes, very possible for that VP crew to end up alone. Our mission commander quals come with an understanding that you can be a detachment OIC.

 

[Hotdogs]

I understand what you're saying about CO's not going down range on Day 1, but our airwing's first day of combat ops in Afghanistan went as follows:
Wave 1:
CAG piloting a F
My CO piloting the old girl Prowler

Wave 2:
My XO riding shotgun in the Wave 2 Prowler.

There was no discussion whether or not my CO and XO would be in the first 2 combat waves, and I'm willing to bet most of the other squadron COs/XOs went in-country on Day 1 also. Whether the same would carry over on Day 1 of a conflict with a more lethal adversary, I don't know, I can only tell you what I witnessed.

...and the most recent Cobra/Huey strikes in Libya were led by company grade WTIs. Which wasn't your standard OIR or OEF ATO frag. Differences in squadrons, services, communities, and deployments, and I'm by no means saying there's a hard and fast rule, just that's there is no panacea for all situations.