Advice from senior officers: Can I make it to sanctuary at 18 years based on the following...

[jagM3]

Good evening. I am trying to do some future planning and would appreciate any help from some of the more senior officers lurking on here.

First, I am an 1835 and commissioned as an ENS (O1-E) in February 2016 with 8 years, 10 months, and 10 days of prior enlisted good years towards retirement. In my Officer Data Card (ODC), my commissioned year group is S16.

I pinned on LTJG (O2-E) in February 2018 last month at which point I had 10 years, 10 months, and 10 days of good retirement years.

I will be pinning on LT (O3-E) in February 2020 at which point I will have 12 years, 10 months, and 10 days of good retirement years.

For the FY19 1835 O4 promotion board being convened April 16, 2018, the most junior officer on the board has a date of rank of October 1, 2013 (this most junior officer has 4 years and 6 months as an O3 before going up for O4, everyone else going up has more time in grade than him).

Based on this, I can make an educated guess that I will likely have a similar amount of time as an O3-E before going up for the O4 board (approximately 4 years and 6 months I would assume?). If I pin on O3-E with a date of rank of February 2020 and then I add 4 years and 6 months to this, I would at that point have 17 years and 4 months of good retirement years as an O3-E when I get my first look. If I am not selected, my second (and final) look at O4 would likely occur the following year at which point in time I would have 18 years and 4 months and have already hit sanctuary. This is all my own assessment and I would greatly appreciate input from senior officers or others in my position.

Given all of the above, is it likely that i'll be able to reach sanctuary at 18 years as an O3-E?

Thanks a lot

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

Good evening. I am trying to do some future planning and would appreciate any help from some of the more senior officers lurking on here.

First, I am an 1835 and commissioned as an ENS in February 2016. In my Officer Data Card (ODC), my year group is S16.

I pinned on LTJG in February 2018 and will be pinning on LT in February 2020.

Once I pin on LT in February 2020, at what point will my first look at O4 as an 1835 occur? Is there a standard set number of years when the first time you become eligible for the O4 promotion board is? Is it dependent on my year group and designator? I know that 1835 O4 promotion boards are held every year, but when do I (or my year group, S16) become eligible to actually go in front of one of the O4 boards for my first look?

Thanks a lot

FY26 but I would say around FY24 start checking the annual messages to see where your DOR might fall in for promotion.

I would also reach out to some O4 and O5s in your reserve unit as well for guidance.

 

[nittany03]

Good evening. I am trying to do some future planning and would appreciate any help from some of the more senior officers lurking on here.

First, I am an 1835 and commissioned as an ENS in February 2016. In my Officer Data Card (ODC), my year group is S16.

I pinned on LTJG in February 2018 and will be pinning on LT in February 2020.

Once I pin on LT in February 2020, at what point will my first look at O4 as an 1835 occur? Is there a standard set number of years when the first time you become eligible for the O4 promotion board is? Is it dependent on my year group and designator? I know that 1835 O4 promotion boards are held every year, but when do I (or my year group, S16) become eligible to actually go in front of one of the O4 boards for my first look?

Thanks a lot

You’re way too far out to know for sure. Expect normal timing for your community unless you have reason to believe otherwise. Don’t know if IDC does similarly, but aviation communities have what’s called a “bubba list,” which is everyone in lineal order with projected zones for the next few years. But beyond two or three years, those zones are projections only and highly subject to flux around the edges. If you’re very junior or senior, your IZ year can slide one way or the other. This can be good or bad.

TL;DR when you’ve had a couple years as a LT, if you’re still not sure, ask your reporting senior during midterm counseling or a FITREP debrief. They should be mentoring you about this stuff at the latest when you pin O-3, if not before.

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

They should be mentoring you about this stuff at the latest when you pin O-3, if not before.

This. Unless you’re in a really shitty command you should ask leadership. But once again way too early and you should worry about the present than the way distant future.

 

[picklesuit]

Easiest way to mitigate is work hard, get good FITREPS, and make O-4. Then you won’t have to sweat sanctuary...

 

[Brett327]

Agree with Pickle. Plan for success. An O3 retirement is a pittance compared to your potential to retire as an O5 or above. Also, O3E is a pay grade, not a rank. Stop using the E part unless you’re talking specifically about pay.

 

[Uncle Fester]

@jagM3 - since you posted this in the Reserves forum and said you’re an 1835 - I assume you’re a SELRES? The over-18 sanctuary-to-retirement only applies to Active/FTS. As far as I understand it, as long as you're in good standing with the Res, it counts as a good year to retirement. I've never heard of a RC officer FOSing out.

 

[atmahan]

IMO, this is where you stand:

Right now (March 2018), you either have 10 or 11 Qualifying Years.

By Feb 2020 you will have 12 or 13 Qualifying Years.

If in Feb 2020 you don't make O-3, then forget it, you will be processed out.

If you do make O-3 then:

You will be first looked at to make O-4 anywhere from as soon as 4 years after you make O-3. This means as early as your 16 or 17th Year.

YOUR ABSOLUTE WORST CASE:

Your first look is during your 16th year and you don't make O-4.

AND

Then you are looked at a 2nd time during your 17th Year and you still don''t make O-4. Now you will be 2XFOS (Failure of Selection).


The rules state that, as an O-3, you can be processed out on the 7th month after the Board conducting your 2nd Look (and you became 2XFOS) convened.

So, if this happens

AND

THE ANNIVERSARY DATE FOR YOUR 18TH YEAR (WHICH WOULD PUT YOU IN SANCTUARY) IS AFTER THE 7TH MONTH AFTER THE BOARD CONVENED FOR YOUR 2ND LOOK (WHERE YOU BECAME 2XFOS) THEN YOU CAN BE PROCESSED OUT.


However, you have many more Best Case Scenarios:

1) You make O-4 in either your 1st or 2nd Look regardless of how early you are first looked at.

2) If, in the Worst Case Scenario, the Anniversary Date for your 18th Year is before the 7th Month after the Board Convened for your 2nd Look (where you became 2XFOS) then you will hit Sanctuary.

3) If your first look is during your 17th year or later, then you have nothing to worry about. Even if you fail to make O-4 on the second look you will have hit Sanctuary.

I hope this helps clear things up.

 

[jagM3]

Thanks a lot for all of your assistance and guidance in helping to understand this.

atmahan, one further question: does the 10 months and 10 days of service I have count for anything?

For example, my anniversary month is February and based on the following:

February 2020 promote to O3 with 12 years (10 months, 10 days TIS)

February 2024 I hit 4 years TIG with 16 years (10 months, 10 days TIS)

March 2024 is first likely O4 promotion board (16 years, 11 months, 10 days TIS)

February 2025 I hit 5 years TIG with 17 years (10 months, 10 days TIS)

March 2025 is second likely O4 promotion board (17 years, 10 months, 10 days TIS)

February 2026 is the anniversary date for my 18th total year (at which point I will have 18 years, 10 months, and 10 days). This anniversary date I don't believe factors the 10 months and 10 days I already have as a result of broken service. I am unsure how this 10 months and 10 days factors in, because I will technically be at 18 total years TIS in May 2025 as a result of this additional 10 months of broken previous time, but I don't know if it officially counts until I actually hit the anniversary year in February 2026.

If I am 2xFOS on the second earliest possible O4 board in March 2024, which at the point in time of the board, I will have 17 years, 10 months, and 10 days. If I add 7 months to this second earliest possible promotion board, that would put me at a total of 18 years, 5 months, 10 days. As a reminder, my anniversary year is in February, and my anniversary year on a promotion board that would occur in March would not occur until nearly 11 months later in February 2025 at which point I would then have 18 years, 10 months, 10 days. Is your total accumulated time calculated at that 7 month mark after the board, or do they simply rely on whether you hit the anniversary year or not? I will have 18 years and several months at that point, but officially I would not hit my anniversary year until many months after the 7 month limit -- if I'm making sense. Wanted to get your thoughts on this contingency. Thanks again for your advice, it really is appreciated.

To be emphasize, my intentions are not to become 2xFOS'd and scrape by into sanctuary -- hopefully I will be selected for O4 and I will be volunteering for MOBs etc. and doing my part to remain competitive, but it is necessary to plan for these circumstances. It shocks me that the majority of my peers who are O2s aren't even aware of what an anniversary year is!

 

[atmahan]

JagM3,

Did your Anniversary Month change to February when you got your Commission?

One’s original Anniversary Month is based on the month of your Entry Into Service (EIS). Normally this is when one first enters Actice Duty, which in your case was when you Enlisted.

One’s EIS changes if they have had a long break (2-4 years, I can’t recall which right now) between getting out either from Active or Reserves and then re-affiliating. I am not aware of it changing when one gets Commissioned but this may the case.

Does this explain why your Anniversary month is in February but you have 10 additional months?

The best place to check is your ASOSH online ( as a SELRES you should be able to at BUPUERS Online).

This is very important to know because, to answer your last question: No, only Anniversary Dates matter, not TIS.

So you do run the risk of hitting the Absolute Worst Case Scenario (IF YOUR ANNIVERSARY MONTH IS IN FEBRUARY).

However, if your break in service was not that long then your Anniversary Month should be 10 months earlier. Unless, that is, it did get reset due to your Commissioning.

 

[jagM3]

JagM3,

Did your Anniversary Month change to February when you got your Commission?

One’s original Anniversary Month is based on the month of your Entry Into Service (EIS). Normally this is when one first enters Actice Duty, which in your case was when you Enlisted.

One’s EIS changes if they have had a long break (2-4 years, I can’t recall which right now) between getting out either from Active or Reserves and then re-affiliating. I am not aware of it changing when one gets Commissioned but this may the case.

Does this explain why your Anniversary month is in February but you have 10 additional months?

The best place to check is your ASOSH online ( as a SELRES you should be able to at BUPUERS Online).

This is very important to know because, to answer your last question: No, only Anniversary Dates matter, not TIS.

So you do run the risk of hitting the Absolute Worst Case Scenario (IF YOUR ANNIVERSARY MONTH IS IN FEBRUARY).

However, if your break in service was not that long then your Anniversary Month should be 10 months earlier. Unless, that is, it did get reset due to your Commissioning.

Yes, that is correct. My anniversary date was changed to February upon commissioning as a result of about 6 months break in service. Since commissioning, the 10 months and 10 days has been permanently reflected on my ASOSH with only my years of TIS increasing each February. For example, last February I had 9 years 10 months and 10 days and then last month when I hit my anniversary it then changed to 10 years 10 months and 10 days. So for all intents and purposes, these 10 months and 20 days are for lack of a better word, meaningless for my purposes of reaching sanctuary? Thanks a lot.

 

[bubblehead]

I've never heard of a RC officer FOSing out.

ORLY? It happens when people 2XFOS for O4... Becoming more common for Reserve Intel/183X due to number of people in that career path. Last O4 selection rate was 67%.

 

[atmahan]

I agree with Uncle Fester.

Officers in both Active and Reserves get processed out when they hit 2XFOS. Prior Enlisted Officers O-1E through O-3E can get to 20 Qualifying Years if they have enough Enlisted Years on top of their Officer Years to get them to Sanctuary (like jagM3 is asking about).

Not so for non-Prior Officers of these grades.

O-4s (Prior or not) can get to 20 Years because they can only be processed out on their 20th Commissioned Year, even if they are 2XFOS for O-5 (this was my case). They are also allowed to miss a 1-2 Qualifying Years during that time.

O-5s and above are processed out on their 26th Commissioned Year. This allows them to miss a few more Qualifying Years.

This is why you hear of Officers still in the Reserves as 3XFOS, 4XFOS, etc. But you won't see this for O-1s through O-3s, unless they hit Sanctuary.



As to jagM3's last question:


All that matters for you right now regarding this thread is: How many Qualifying Years your ARPR/ASOSH lists and your Anniversary Date (which lies in sometime in February).

NPC will use these 2 to determine how many Years you have and as the cut-off date, nothing else. And your Qualifying Year does not calculate until you hit your next Anniversary Date.

I would not worry so much. The chances of you getting your first look on your 16th Year are pretty slim because, as you said, the board convenes in March 2024, 1 month after you hit 4 Years as an O-3. Also, your promotion to O-3 may not occur in Feb 2020 but a few months later (it will only be announced in Feb 2020). Therefore the 2024 March Board might be convening before you have 4 full years as an O-3) which means they won't be looking at you during that board.

The earliest you most likely get your first look is in your 17th Year, if not your 18th Year.

Of course, this all depends on you getting Qualifying Years every single year from now till then. If you miss even one then you are increasing your chances of not making it since your Lineal/Precedence Number will come up for the Board (whenever it does) regardless if you are earning Qualifying Years or not.

Also, as others have stated, you should aim to make O-4 by applying for more leadership/harder billets and getting stellar fitreps. Not only will that give more peace of mind but more options and a higher pay check in the end.

 

[bubblehead]

I put together a spreadsheet that I use to track this stuff. Here is a screen shot. I am prior enlisted so I started with a higher number of total years of qualifying service when I Was commissioned. You can get the points and anniversary year - which you need - from ARPR/ASOSH. Add in a column "D" with your age so you know when you hit 62 which is Mandatory Retirement per Title 10, U.S. Code, Section 14509, 14703, 12308.

Flow Point is when you are "eligible" for promotion. For O4 you will be eligible during the board that convenes about a year before you hit your 9 year flow point, so at that time, keep an eye out for the NAVADMIN for the all fully qualified list to see the group. Take the junior and senior in that list for your designator, go to BOL, then to Naval Register, and download all of the O3's for your designator into excel. Based on the junior and senior in that list, you will see who you are competing with.

If you get selected, you'll see the message, but your promotion will not be considered permanent/effective until at least on a date on or greater than your actual flow point date. Keep an eye out for the requisite NAVADMIN "NAVY RESERVE PROMOTIONS TO THE PERMANENT GRADES OF CAPTAIN, COMMANDER, LIEUTENANT COMMANDER, LIEUTENANT, AND CHIEF WARRANT OFFICERS IN THE LINE AND STAFF CORPS."

For me, I was selected for O4 on the July 2017 message, but will not pin it on (permanent/effective ) until at least this summer or after.

Making O4 as an INTEL guy is not turn key as it once used to be. You have to take different unit assignments, as well as take on jobs as Training Officer, Admin Officer, Ops, etc. I've seen people homestead in units, mobilize, and not take the "Navy" jobs (i.e., admin, training, etc.). They then wonder why they were not making O4. Doesn't help that INTEL is overmanned. Competition is tough, hence the 67% select rate on the last board.

For us IP's it was 87% select rate so was pretty easy

 

[jagM3]

Atmahan and bubblehead, thank you both for the incredible wealth of information. Most of the JOs in my unit are completely unaware of these things and barely know how to reschedule a drill let alone this type of in-depth knowledge. I will be sure to pass on the information in a PME briefing in the next few months once I educate myself more.

Bubblehead, the flow chart idea is excellent. I will create one for myself this weekend and post a screenshot of it here.

Atmahan, I am a bit disappointed to learn that the 10 months of TIS reflected in my ASOSH on top of my years of qualifying service does not have a purpose, at least as far as reading sanctuary is concerned and ONLY completed anniversary years are what actually matters. As I understand it, I could theoretically be 2xFOS with 18 years, 9 months, and 10 days if a second promotion board is held just one month after my anniversary year because technically that 18th good year would not count until my following anniversary year. Am I understanding this correctly? If so, is there ANY benefit to these extra 10 months I have? Thanks a lot, sir!