If you have a commercial license, you are qualified for complex aircraft.
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Logging T-34 time
- Thread starter USFpilot06
- Start date
If you have a commercial license, you are qualified for complex aircraft.
I realize this is the case, however one typically does not have a commercial license as an SNA...until you are winged and taken the appropriate written exam. Isnt that what we are talking about here, is a student with only a private license?
You are confusing acting as PIC and logging PIC. The FAA makes a distinction and you have to be able to read between the lines of a logbook to tell which one is being logged.
Acting as PIC comes from part 1 of the FARs
14 CFR 1.1
Pilot in Command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.
Logging PIC comes from part 61
14 CFR 61.51
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.
So a student that has a single engine private can log PIC as the sole manipulator when he is receiving instruction in that plane. The CFI can log PIC because he is either acting as PIC or because of (3) above if the student is also acting as PIC (i.e. he owns the plane for instance.)
14 CFR 61.31
(e) Additional training required for operating complex airplanes.
(1) ...no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller) unless the person has-
(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a complex airplane...
(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a complex airplane.
A Navy T-34 flight student with a private license but no complex endorsement may still log PIC as sole manipulator. 61.31 says he may not act as pilot in command without the complex endorsement. Besides, the IP would be acting as PIC anyway.
14 CFR 61.51
(d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crew member, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft.
If the T-34 student has a private with a complex endorsement, he can log his sole flights as PIC since he is than qualified to act as PIC. If he has a private and no complex endorsement or if he has no license, he can log the time a solo since he is not qualified to act as PIC.
To get back to a comment you made about the airlines and interviews - airlines normally only want to see part 1 PIC (acting as PIC) on the flight summaries an applicant fills out. In this case, the pilot would only put the PIC that does not also have an associated dual received entry with it. It can be assumed PIC + dual received = part 61 sole manipulator logging of PIC where PIC + no dual received = part 1 acting PIC. Solo time never equals PIC.
I was refering to GatorDev's last comment.
Would this be similar to the difference between logging FPT and CPT? The civilian logbooks dont make the distinction, so logging PIC time would be same as logging FPT. Where ACTING as PIC would equate to signing the A sheet??
FEDEX Qualifications/requirements:
https://www.pilotcredentials.com/careers/index.php?a=qualifications
https://www.pilotcredentials.com/careers/index.php?a=qualifications
What I was referring to is that sure, if you wanted to, as a student not log PIC while the IP is acting PIC. But, since the student is with a US IP, he can log dual time, which is nearly as good as PIC. It will not necessarily help for the airlines, but if you wanted to get your private, instrument, commerical or ATP you could count the flight training hours.
HAL, you must be a CFI or a really bored pilot. That a way.
Gotcha.
14 CFR 61.129 Aeronautical Experience (Commercial Pilot Requirements)
(a) & (b) Regulations are the same for single and multiengine rating.
(3) (ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller, or is turbine-powered...
I know this is the part 61 requirement, but I have a question. This is my interpretation. You are fully authorized to fly a P-3 and are the big cheese on it. You go apply and take your military equivalency test and get your Commercial Multiengine with Instrument Airplane. As I mentioned before a complex qualification requires the endorsement. To act as PIC, you need as specific instructor to give you the endorsement. I do not know if with the competency you are automatically given the complex. I understand that yes, you are competant. Does anyone know if the complex, as with a high performance and high altitude endorsement, come with the competency test?
Acting as PIC =aircraft commander time
Logging PIC = first pilot time
Most airlines (and probably all majors) only count the part 1 acting as PIC. The good news - you can count all your aircraft commander time as part 1 PIC (and total flight time) even if you were not physically in a pilot seat (P-3 bubbas with 3 pilots on board) as you are always the HMFIC according to the FAA.
A good case can also be made for non-aircraft commanders to count all their "other" time as SIC although they were not in a pilot seat. If the Navy considers them a "required crew member", then they can legally log SIC time. A lot of airlines "heavy crew" pilot for long flights. These is especially true with 2-seat cockpits like the 767 and 777. If the total flight time is going to be over 8 hours, an extra pilot is added. Most airlines give 1 pilot PIC for the entire flight and the other 2 SIC for the entire flight. The records do not differentiate who was in the seat at any given time. The airline procedures are approved by the FAA and therefore must now be complied with just as if they were a regulation. I know some pilots that log it all (many just use their airline monthly flight report as their log) and some that track it for themselves and only log actual seat time. Just food for thought - I'd be very careful with this one
Yeah I have my CFI but I'm also a really bored pilot. I get paid some pretty good bucks to fly a Citation once or twice a week. Occasionally I get a 727 contract pilot gig. I have a LOT of free time on my hands.
Where it will help with the airlines is in the total time category. Airlines usually have a minimum total time requirement and it is significantly more than the PIC requirement.
Also airlines have their published minimum requirements and their non-published competitive minimums. The competitive minimums are usually easy to find out via the internet or people working there. At the majors, the competitive minimums are usually significantly higher than the published minimums. But still apply at the competitive minimums as you never know.....plus applying then and updating regularly gives the airline a warm and fuzzy that you are really interested in them as a career stop.
While I can't prove via the FARs that the competency gives you the complex endorsement but (as Fly Navy said) I would infer it does. If you were to take the actual flight test, it would have to be taken in a complex aircraft.
The high performance endorsement is a totally different animal as the commercial flight test does not require that it be taken in a high performance aircraft.
I do know that if you get a type rating you automatically have all three endorsement. When I got my first type I asked the school to add the high altitude endorsement to my logbook. They showed me a FAA document where it said issuance of a type rating in a pressurized aircraft meets the requirements of 61.31(e), (f), & (g) since by default all planes requiring a type are complex, high performance and pressurized. I can't remember if the document was a FAR, an AC, etc. It was not in part 61.