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Fleet fly in 2018
- Thread starter bub513
- Start date
Should have never gotten rid of the S-3B, thanks Nathman. That subject is its own thread.
ATIS
All of this. Longtime lurker, first time poster. I put down west coast back in the day, not knowing any better. Ended up with HSM Japan, never looked back. I wonder how much Sierra koolaid is flowing at South Field these days... Every HSC guy I know is running for lat xfer or the exit. Their bonus is bottom dollar for a reason.
KD, I agree with you WRT missions, direction, and especially weapons. Amongst ourselves, we can't even decide what we do and have an ability to advertise it and be taken seriously. However, I do feel in time that we will get there. But you and I both know that life is pretty good, especially in EXP land. Fly by day, party by night. Either in Bahrain or Naples. Supply ship life is pretty cake as well. I laugh at HSM guys, and while I completely agree that their mission is incredibly valuable and valued at the highest levels, I don't envy flying SSC over dows from 2200-0600 or dipping all day. I have said it before and will again, while turns in the D aren't glamorous nor is trash and ass, its valued. I had a blast doing the PMC mission for two deployments. We just have to accept that this is what Papa Navy wants us doing.
That being said, I love when people OUTSIDE of the community tell me what the community and its members are doing. Especially HSM bubbas and those that haven't been in HSC for years. Looking at you Squorch. Not surprising that you feel everyone is getting out. I'm sure that is what you saw in Orange and White land, where the career prospects following that tour are bordering between slim and none. You too Thump. Newsflash, the bonus has little to nothing to do with mission/community value and everything to do with asses in the seats. Case in point, VP/VQ is very valuable and they sit at 75000 with us. HM/VFA/VAQ, all at 175000 have a RETENTION problem. Period. For those of you in HT land, if you want to have clear direction of your mission and the way ahead, for now choose HSM. Can't argue with that. However, HSC will figure it out. Don't listen to the bullshit spewed from everyone on this forum that makes guesses with little to no credibility. Talk to those IN the community, or those connected enough to it to speak intelligently.
And while there are guys that are going FTS/transferring/getting out within the community, it hasn't moved the needle much. Look at the DH slate this year. Overwhelming majority were FRS/WTI/-85 as usual, with several HT/VT. 1 VX guy and 0 beyond that. I'd say that's pretty healthy. Sitting in wardrooms across the sea wall, we are inching in the wrong direction, but nowhere near other communities with regards to retaining talent. Here's a tip, I don't talk about shit that isn't in my swim lane. I don't make guesses about VFA or other communities and their future, or any other. If I did, I'd be Sculpin.
That being said, I love when people OUTSIDE of the community tell me what the community and its members are doing. Especially HSM bubbas and those that haven't been in HSC for years. Looking at you Squorch. Not surprising that you feel everyone is getting out. I'm sure that is what you saw in Orange and White land, where the career prospects following that tour are bordering between slim and none. You too Thump. Newsflash, the bonus has little to nothing to do with mission/community value and everything to do with asses in the seats. Case in point, VP/VQ is very valuable and they sit at 75000 with us. HM/VFA/VAQ, all at 175000 have a RETENTION problem. Period. For those of you in HT land, if you want to have clear direction of your mission and the way ahead, for now choose HSM. Can't argue with that. However, HSC will figure it out. Don't listen to the bullshit spewed from everyone on this forum that makes guesses with little to no credibility. Talk to those IN the community, or those connected enough to it to speak intelligently.
And while there are guys that are going FTS/transferring/getting out within the community, it hasn't moved the needle much. Look at the DH slate this year. Overwhelming majority were FRS/WTI/-85 as usual, with several HT/VT. 1 VX guy and 0 beyond that. I'd say that's pretty healthy. Sitting in wardrooms across the sea wall, we are inching in the wrong direction, but nowhere near other communities with regards to retaining talent. Here's a tip, I don't talk about shit that isn't in my swim lane. I don't make guesses about VFA or other communities and their future, or any other. If I did, I'd be Sculpin.
I fully expect and anticipate that this will be one of the many times on Airwarriors where the one in the know realizes that he is wasting his time arguing with someone who thinks he knows, but here goes:
Again, Squorch, bullshit! From the H-3, -46, and -F/-H, we have had a dedicated mission. You saying that the NAE hasn't known what to do with HSC for a decade shows your ignorance. It used to include ASW, but now that is dominated by HSM, and I'm ok with that. We have been the dedicated SAR asset on the ship (L-class and CVN) for decades, as well as the dedicated PMC asset. That is not to even begin to discuss land based DETS and supply ships. Have you ever seen a Romeo conduct SAR, or do VERTREP. I have and its laughable. And before anyone gets butt hurt, the aircraft is the limiting factor, not the talent of the individual in the seat. The problem currently is many Sierra pilots that aren't ok with doing that, and wanting to play TF taking CAG (not the Navy Air Wing Commander) to the X. That is doing us no good.
The overall problem is our venture to move well beyond what we are truly expected to do. We don't have enough time in the day to discuss the best path beyond our bread and butter missions, to include ASUW/SOF/PR. Yes, it is mostly training evolutions were are doing. Talk to helo pilots in the Korean conflict that ended up conducting missions that they had never done operationally, but thankfully had trained to.
Where I think we are at a disadvantage and hindrance is the fact that we are trying to do TOO MUCH! FIRESCOUT/AMCM/Overland. Eventually, someone in a high enough position of leadership will realize the potential of the R/S relationship in the overwater environment. Until then, I'll keep doing my PMC, SAR, and ASUW. And you can keeping rotting in DC trying to speak to the pulse of the community.
Again, Squorch, bullshit! From the H-3, -46, and -F/-H, we have had a dedicated mission. You saying that the NAE hasn't known what to do with HSC for a decade shows your ignorance. It used to include ASW, but now that is dominated by HSM, and I'm ok with that. We have been the dedicated SAR asset on the ship (L-class and CVN) for decades, as well as the dedicated PMC asset. That is not to even begin to discuss land based DETS and supply ships. Have you ever seen a Romeo conduct SAR, or do VERTREP. I have and its laughable. And before anyone gets butt hurt, the aircraft is the limiting factor, not the talent of the individual in the seat. The problem currently is many Sierra pilots that aren't ok with doing that, and wanting to play TF taking CAG (not the Navy Air Wing Commander) to the X. That is doing us no good.
The overall problem is our venture to move well beyond what we are truly expected to do. We don't have enough time in the day to discuss the best path beyond our bread and butter missions, to include ASUW/SOF/PR. Yes, it is mostly training evolutions were are doing. Talk to helo pilots in the Korean conflict that ended up conducting missions that they had never done operationally, but thankfully had trained to.
Where I think we are at a disadvantage and hindrance is the fact that we are trying to do TOO MUCH! FIRESCOUT/AMCM/Overland. Eventually, someone in a high enough position of leadership will realize the potential of the R/S relationship in the overwater environment. Until then, I'll keep doing my PMC, SAR, and ASUW. And you can keeping rotting in DC trying to speak to the pulse of the community.
To hone in very specifically on this tiny extract: Would you mind clarifying what you mean here? Do HT/VT instructors face tougher DH selection statistics than other production-tour pilots who stay in model (e.g., FRS, WTI)?
Standby for fireworks on this one, but here we go:
I obviously do not set the priorities and values of the NAE, but I agree with them. Continued experience in your fleet aircraft is king. Not saying there aren't rare exceptions, but that's how it is. As a pilot on his first shore tour, until proven otherwise through multiple boards and milestones made, the priority is production. Within production, the highest value is given to those who stay in their fleet aircraft. I have seen this mirrored across all aviation communities. FRS Instructor, WTI (WWS/NAWDC), and the Fire Hawks, and formerly Red Wolves. Why? Because they build more experience in gray helicopters/airplanes and stay qualified and more proficient in TTPs and NATOPS.
Following that, the closer you stay to your T/M/S the better, generally as long as it's production. For the 60, being in a helicopter is next (HTs), followed by VTs (production, but not a helo obviously). The outliers would be VX-1 (OPTEST) and TPS grads. They are relatively few and far between but they tend to do ok. Not sure how OPTEST is valued by other communities, but ours don't play well at boards. The lower you get down the priority pole, the harder it is to make milestones, especially DH and command. ***HOT: I am talking about the billets, not the people. I have seen multiple top performing officers/pilots who WANTED to do HT/VT. I have had dirtbags in the RAG/WS with me. Good buddy of mine was a HT instructor, then crushed his DH ride, was loved by everyone, but "the COs job is to make COs, so the WTI got the #1 ticket.** But like many have said, by and large, the best end up in spots/billets that are given highest value and priority.
The Admirals and Navy leadership can go to 1000000 panels and claim that they value a well rounded, educated, diversified officer. NAE values experience/leadership in the aircraft. There is time built in to your career to get a post-grad degree. However, if you do PEP, Olmsted, CIP, etc you are taking a gamble. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Not saying its not going to change, but that is the current state of the NAE. If have two shit hot officers that stayed on the path with identical careers, with the exception that at some point one got OOD (U) and the other did PEP/Olmsted, sorry I can tell you who will win the tie breaker in MOST cases.
Yes, I am on a disassociated tour. No, its not to fill SWO billets. This just in: at some point the Navy will value you for something other than your ability to fly an aircraft, IN ALL COMMUNITIES! Yes, VFA/VAQ doesn't do the path we do, but they still get CDO(U) at some point to be eligible to command a ship. The Navy will eventually want you to command a ship, base, fleet, etc. Fly while you can, but expect as you continue on the path you will stop flying at some point. And that's ok. Guess that was a bit long winded, but I'm happy to discuss what I've seen and done, and where I see us going (especially HSC).
I obviously do not set the priorities and values of the NAE, but I agree with them. Continued experience in your fleet aircraft is king. Not saying there aren't rare exceptions, but that's how it is. As a pilot on his first shore tour, until proven otherwise through multiple boards and milestones made, the priority is production. Within production, the highest value is given to those who stay in their fleet aircraft. I have seen this mirrored across all aviation communities. FRS Instructor, WTI (WWS/NAWDC), and the Fire Hawks, and formerly Red Wolves. Why? Because they build more experience in gray helicopters/airplanes and stay qualified and more proficient in TTPs and NATOPS.
Following that, the closer you stay to your T/M/S the better, generally as long as it's production. For the 60, being in a helicopter is next (HTs), followed by VTs (production, but not a helo obviously). The outliers would be VX-1 (OPTEST) and TPS grads. They are relatively few and far between but they tend to do ok. Not sure how OPTEST is valued by other communities, but ours don't play well at boards. The lower you get down the priority pole, the harder it is to make milestones, especially DH and command. ***HOT: I am talking about the billets, not the people. I have seen multiple top performing officers/pilots who WANTED to do HT/VT. I have had dirtbags in the RAG/WS with me. Good buddy of mine was a HT instructor, then crushed his DH ride, was loved by everyone, but "the COs job is to make COs, so the WTI got the #1 ticket.** But like many have said, by and large, the best end up in spots/billets that are given highest value and priority.
The Admirals and Navy leadership can go to 1000000 panels and claim that they value a well rounded, educated, diversified officer. NAE values experience/leadership in the aircraft. There is time built in to your career to get a post-grad degree. However, if you do PEP, Olmsted, CIP, etc you are taking a gamble. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Not saying its not going to change, but that is the current state of the NAE. If have two shit hot officers that stayed on the path with identical careers, with the exception that at some point one got OOD (U) and the other did PEP/Olmsted, sorry I can tell you who will win the tie breaker in MOST cases.
Yes, I am on a disassociated tour. No, its not to fill SWO billets. This just in: at some point the Navy will value you for something other than your ability to fly an aircraft, IN ALL COMMUNITIES! Yes, VFA/VAQ doesn't do the path we do, but they still get CDO(U) at some point to be eligible to command a ship. The Navy will eventually want you to command a ship, base, fleet, etc. Fly while you can, but expect as you continue on the path you will stop flying at some point. And that's ok. Guess that was a bit long winded, but I'm happy to discuss what I've seen and done, and where I see us going (especially HSC).
Look at it this way- if it was you running the show in your T/M/S community then where would you want your best people to go for their first shore tour? You'd keep them close to the mothership, right? Of course you would. That means FRS or WTI. For better or for worse, your trajectory as a player in your community began when you were an FRS student and the law of compound interest applies to everything you do.
Now, something else that every community needs is lots of people with "buy-in," hence the standard talking points about valuing well roundedness and variety. Circumstances ebb and flow and sometimes there are more seats to fill than cookie cutter career path people available to fill them. That's when the training command, PEP, and "other" career path people get invited back to be DHs. Some years are better than others, including a few years that were downright crappy. Those people need to buy-in to the system for the system to function. If you want to see what happens when this buy-in falls apart then look at what is going on with VFA DH this year...
As for where you stand in your community, if the feedback in your fleet fitrep debriefs amounts to little more than, "you're doing great, keep it up!" then I have some harsh news- there's a club and you ain't in it, shipmate. Don't let your feelings be hurt, go for whatever first shore tour orders you want and you can get (and every other tour after that), and make those decisions with your eyes open. Be a stand-up guy/gal serving your country because that always pays off. Sometimes it pays off a lot.
(Several years ago at an NHA Fleet Fly-in, one of my friends asked an informal panel of CO-senior officer-community honchos how training command IPs stacked up against RAG IPs on the DH selection board, specifically if a #1 VT/HT ticket was equivalent to a #3 FRS, if it was better, worse, or what? The O5 who fielded that question completely dodged it and said "uhhh" a lot. It made me mad at the time but the silver lining is that from that moment on, none of us had any illusions of his integrity. So if you meet someone who dodges a legitimate question like that, take comfort in the silver lining. You now know not to waste your breath asking him anything else!!)
Back on track though, sometimes things change, down the road you end up working for someone who really likes your work and writes great paper on you, you have lucky timing and opportunity, yadda yadda... Occasionally somebody beats the odds when they didn't take the cookie cutter career path (whether or not they were a community golden child). Either way, that comes back to my points about being a stand-up person and how each community functions, well, the way you'd expect them to if you were running the show.
None of this should come as a surprise...
Now, something else that every community needs is lots of people with "buy-in," hence the standard talking points about valuing well roundedness and variety. Circumstances ebb and flow and sometimes there are more seats to fill than cookie cutter career path people available to fill them. That's when the training command, PEP, and "other" career path people get invited back to be DHs. Some years are better than others, including a few years that were downright crappy. Those people need to buy-in to the system for the system to function. If you want to see what happens when this buy-in falls apart then look at what is going on with VFA DH this year...
As for where you stand in your community, if the feedback in your fleet fitrep debriefs amounts to little more than, "you're doing great, keep it up!" then I have some harsh news- there's a club and you ain't in it, shipmate. Don't let your feelings be hurt, go for whatever first shore tour orders you want and you can get (and every other tour after that), and make those decisions with your eyes open. Be a stand-up guy/gal serving your country because that always pays off. Sometimes it pays off a lot.
(Several years ago at an NHA Fleet Fly-in, one of my friends asked an informal panel of CO-senior officer-community honchos how training command IPs stacked up against RAG IPs on the DH selection board, specifically if a #1 VT/HT ticket was equivalent to a #3 FRS, if it was better, worse, or what? The O5 who fielded that question completely dodged it and said "uhhh" a lot. It made me mad at the time but the silver lining is that from that moment on, none of us had any illusions of his integrity. So if you meet someone who dodges a legitimate question like that, take comfort in the silver lining. You now know not to waste your breath asking him anything else!!)
Back on track though, sometimes things change, down the road you end up working for someone who really likes your work and writes great paper on you, you have lucky timing and opportunity, yadda yadda... Occasionally somebody beats the odds when they didn't take the cookie cutter career path (whether or not they were a community golden child). Either way, that comes back to my points about being a stand-up person and how each community functions, well, the way you'd expect them to if you were running the show.
None of this should come as a surprise...
Nothing following my previous post does come as a surprise, but the implication I was interested in was that career opportunities for HT/VT instructors are "slim to none," not that they would lose out to an equivalent FRS/WTI bubba in a tiebreaker (I'm treading dangerously close to some 42% business...). I think it's a fairly simple assumption that NAE values strong T/M/S communities and an objective reality that pilots who stay in their series may be able to offer more back in terms of tactical (and non-) employment of their aircraft than somebody who's been flying/instructing outside that aircraft. My brain has no problem seeing the WTI take the lead here, and I suppose it makes sense for the FRS instructor as well (I suppose even day fund and CAI instruction keep you closer to your community's core skills than the equivalent in the -6 or -57...).
In other words, if I put HTs first and got them because I wanted to go back to Pensacola and teach kids, there's a fulfilling job to be had there, but it's not developing my specific community and helping to sharpen its edge against near-peer adversaries. Sounds like the "silver path" to me.
Background: I'm submitting my NOM form next round and the closer I get, the harder this decision is to make (cue the end-of-Primary nostalgia).
The last question I've had remaining before I let the ink dry on this paperwork has been regarding the "slim to no" career opportunities piece. I get the black-and-white: If making command is your goal, do sexy tactical shit in your community ("golden path"). The song I've been sung thus far has mostly been "Stay production," not "Stay in your aircraft." Granted, as soon as people learn the dance, the Navy changes the music, so perhaps the adage should read, "Stay in your aircraft, but if that's not possible, do whatever you can at least to stay production."
All us first-tour JOPA whisper the same question in our hushed talks over beers: "Are you thinking about staying in?" For some, the question cues the evening's vomit earlier than intended. For a rare few, it's a resounding "Yes." For the rest of us, it's some variation of "I'm not sure, but I'm keeping all my options open." My performance/billet availability/etc. will ultimately find a place for me where the community says I belong, but in filling out this ranking sheet, this is the first time I've been given the latitude to make a decision that will actually impact my career.
The greater piece of this is due to my own personal priorities, not a misunderstanding about what it takes to make command. I'm trying to rank what I know would be just an absolute blast (e.g., teaching kids in the -57 with a ton of my buddies all coalescing in Pensacola, including a strong friendship network for my wife) against the semi-guaranteed career boosters (e.g., FRS/WTI). I've been a member of this forum and read it almost daily since 2012 or so; I've absorbed much of this subject matter via osmosis, with an especially productive period in the last year when I actually started to discern the significance of things further away than my next gradesheet or board. I've talked to many of my DHs one-on-one for their INSITU thoughts on this question, as well. I was pretty surprised the answer wasn't very cut and dry from them. My squadron has enjoyed a fairly eclectic group of O-4s, so there hasn't been an obvious standout route (except for "Production" in general). Granted, there are so many chaotic neutral forces working for/against you in both cases that the way you rank the sheet often feels like Maggie Simpson driving the car.
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As this for me, how about this thread jack . . . haha
FRS shouldn't be nearly as high as it is. The simple matter is that you're not leading anyone there, and you're sure as hell not teaching anything difficult. The 60 pretty much flies itself, and all of the "tactical" training is pretty much done at the squadron level. The FRS is far and away the easiest job to have as a second tour.
FRS shouldn't be nearly as high as it is. The simple matter is that you're not leading anyone there, and you're sure as hell not teaching anything difficult. The 60 pretty much flies itself, and all of the "tactical" training is pretty much done at the squadron level. The FRS is far and away the easiest job to have as a second tour.
Lots of HSM guys are picking up Operational DH down here, including some below-zones. Asserting that HT instructors are at great risk of not making DH is pretty fucking inaccurate these days. Besides, even if you don't, you'll be in a better position to fly on the outside than a RAG IP or WTI who gets a fraction of our flight time.
This isn't aimed at you, but we're supposed to be military men and the amount of anxiety people display over something as ultimately inconsequential as the slight difference in promotion rates between different production jobs makes me cringe. Have some balls and do what you want.
Mmmm...that makes me moist.
Promotional rates haven't been much of a guiding concern for me, but it's worth considering if someone with a spreadsheet can show that 90% of people who wind up in the operational 60 took FRS/WTI and only 10% clawed their way back from HT/VT. If my end goal was that I wanted to fly the 60 at sea again (arguably the most career fun I've ever had), then what I do with the next tour matters more. If the numbers are always in flux and I'm not fucking myself by doing something I'd rather do in the short term, then obviously I'll do that thing.
But, above all, this is an online forum with a wide range of experience/wisdom/knowledge, and all knowledge is worth having.
Want to do fun flying and go back to sea? Try for 85. It was the best tour I had in the Navy in 22 years. The main reason I left the Navy was the lack of options given to me by my detailer who told me the two commodores had decided what they wanted post 85 second tour guys to do. Yes, two O-6s apparently had a talk about four to five second tour LTs and decided we had to go "due course." Well, after 8 years of deploying I was ready for a break, not 5-6 more years of deploying for a total of 14 years of continuous deployment cycles.
Don't disagree at all, as the numbers I quoted prove. Usually about 3 or 4 to 1 at best, many times worse. Quality of life wise, Orange and Whites are pretty tough to beat. Cross countries, no programs/ground jobs as intense as the FRS, and lots of flight hours. I find it hilarious that you quote flight hours being more competitive on the outside. For what, medflight? You can have it.
My quote above had little to do with making DH however, when I mentioned career. You have a legitimate chance of making DH as an HT guy, an even greater chance of making OP-T (enjoy TACRON, of if you're very lucky go back to Milton/Corpus) far more than VT. That being said, there were 0 that made OP CMD on the last slate. Can't speak to OP-T, didn't dig into it honestly. So you'll get to 13 or 14 years at the conclusion of your DH ride and the outlook from there is rough. CDCO on the Carrier, or Safety O on the AMPHIB then more grinding to 20. No thanks. If you happen to not make command as a FRS/WTI, go back to the RAG or WS as a DH. If you don't make DH, which the majority don't you're likely to make O4, get no severance if you get out, and if you do stay in the outlook is worse. Think sea to shore rotations in horrific jobs in of course the best locations imaginable. Again, there are rare exceptions to everything.
FRS/WTI have the best odds at making command, which is not what everyone wants so don't quote me on that. But most like the odds being in their favor of flying the vast majority of their first 20, and retiring out of the squadron if one so chooses (which many are).
So, in conclusion, do what you want, not what the Navy wants you to do. But when you make those choices, have your eyes open and realize the odds are either very much in your favor, or not.
My quote above had little to do with making DH however, when I mentioned career. You have a legitimate chance of making DH as an HT guy, an even greater chance of making OP-T (enjoy TACRON, of if you're very lucky go back to Milton/Corpus) far more than VT. That being said, there were 0 that made OP CMD on the last slate. Can't speak to OP-T, didn't dig into it honestly. So you'll get to 13 or 14 years at the conclusion of your DH ride and the outlook from there is rough. CDCO on the Carrier, or Safety O on the AMPHIB then more grinding to 20. No thanks. If you happen to not make command as a FRS/WTI, go back to the RAG or WS as a DH. If you don't make DH, which the majority don't you're likely to make O4, get no severance if you get out, and if you do stay in the outlook is worse. Think sea to shore rotations in horrific jobs in of course the best locations imaginable. Again, there are rare exceptions to everything.
FRS/WTI have the best odds at making command, which is not what everyone wants so don't quote me on that. But most like the odds being in their favor of flying the vast majority of their first 20, and retiring out of the squadron if one so chooses (which many are).
So, in conclusion, do what you want, not what the Navy wants you to do. But when you make those choices, have your eyes open and realize the odds are either very much in your favor, or not.