USN The Slow Death Of The Carrier Air Wing - Or a CSAR Threadjack

[wlawr005]

Of course the Navy is missing the AF equivalent of PJ’s....

HSC AW training has evolved leaps and bounds in the last 10 years...along with much better and more tactically trained SAR Medical Technicians.

They aren't anywhere close to a dedicated CSAR community like the PJs or a traditional Special Operations QRF, but they could feasibly insert themselves into a low risk environment, recover an isolated person, and keep them alive long enough to turn them over to better care.

 

[croakerfish]

HSC AW training has evolved leaps and bounds in the last 10 years...along with much better and more tactically trained SAR Medical Technicians.

They aren't anywhere close to a dedicated CSAR community like the PJs or a traditional Special Operations QRF, but they could feasibly insert themselves into a low risk environment, recover an isolated person, and keep them alive long enough to turn them over to better care.

I was just about to ask why the hell we are considered so incapable of pretty much anything. Was there some massive cockup by HSC is recent history?

 

[jmcquate]

They aren't anywhere close to a dedicated CSAR community like the PJs or a traditional Special Operations QRF, but they could feasibly insert themselves into a low risk environment, recover an isolated person, and keep them alive long enough to turn them over to better care.

Bingo, CSAR vs. SAR. I'm assuming the CVWs still have plane guards with rescue swimmers, would be all that difficult to go feet dry with door gunners and corpsmen?

 

[SynixMan]

Bingo, CSAR vs. SAR. I'm assuming the CVWs still have plane guards with rescue swimmers, would be all that difficult to go feet dry with door gunners and corpsmen?

You’re talking about overland CSAR and it’s a mission they regularly train to. Again, primary asset for it? No. But depending on the threat environment, distances, and timeline, they are a viable organic option.

 

[croakerfish]

Bingo, CSAR vs. SAR. I'm assuming the CVWs still have plane guards with rescue swimmers, would be all that difficult to go feet dry with door gunners and corpsmen?

All HSC squadrons train for overland CSAR for the precise reason that we're the CVW's only organic CSAR capability.

 

[DanMa1156]

While HSC isn’t a viable option given most of the problems we face today, there’s nothing saying they can’t be in some future drive by strike. If it had been a CVN parked off Lybia in 2012 vice a MEU, I have no doubt they would’ve made it happen.

I think if push came to shove and LT Timmy from VFA-whatever was hanging in the silk over some new -Stan, he wouldn’t care where the help came from. HSC is sure as shit better than waiting however long it would take to put other assets in place, and that’s the point of organic CSAR.

Have been told by multiple sources the HSC det embarked within that MEU was tasked with it originally but they turned it down so the Ospreys got the call. The reasons for the turn down vary wildly, but they range everywhere from "that OIC was such a pussy!" to "they didn't have Block 2/3 aircraft embarked." Which, would mean that OIC was smart, not a pussy, and points a problem to what the Commodores' call "scale-able capability." The idea being that on the high end - the CVW HSC guys with their full squadron at the ready to the low end LCS single MH-60S and Firescout combo you can complete any type of mission with HSC aircraft embarked - the only thing that changes is the scale, but not the capability works only if the assets are the same. If you have a Block 1 MH-60S deployed with no ability to detect threats or be armed up past CSW, that commander doesn't have the same use for that HSC aircraft and crew as does the commander of Block IIIs.

 

[DanMa1156]

HSC AW training has evolved leaps and bounds in the last 10 years...along with much better and more tactically trained SAR Medical Technicians.

They aren't anywhere close to a dedicated CSAR community like the PJs or a traditional Special Operations QRF, but they could feasibly insert themselves into a low risk environment, recover an isolated person, and keep them alive long enough to turn them over to better care.

This. Definitely. Especially the SMTs.

I was just about to ask why the hell we are considered so incapable of pretty much anything. Was there some massive cockup by HSC is recent history?

While officially touted as a success, watch the high side video of the "CSAR" of an HSC crew getting the downed fixed wing Army aircrew from March 2016. Judge for yourself.

Here's the reference for that.

 

[SynixMan]

Have been told by multiple sources the HSC det embarked within that MEU was tasked with it originally but they turned it down so the Ospreys got the call. The reasons for the turn down vary wildly, but they range everywhere from "that OIC was such a pussy!" to "they didn't have Block 2/3 aircraft embarked." Which, would mean that OIC was smart, not a pussy, and points a problem to what the Commodores' call "scale-able capability." The idea being that on the high end - the CVW HSC guys with their full squadron at the ready to the low end LCS single MH-60S and Firescout combo you can complete any type of mission with HSC aircraft embarked - the only thing that changes is the scale, but not the capability works only if the assets are the same. If you have a Block 1 MH-60S deployed with no ability to detect threats or be armed up past CSW, that commander doesn't have the same use for that HSC aircraft and crew as does the commander of Block IIIs.

Yes they had the option of being used but that was a 2 plane Expditionary SAR Det that wasn’t ready for it. I believe they’ve since gone to 3 birds and train for more stuff.

-5’s overland det was an awesome step in the right direction of relevance that higher leadership wanted nothing to do with. It wasn’t their fault nothing super interesting happened. Why the hate?

 

[croakerfish]

This. Definitely. Especially the SMTs.



While officially touted as a success, watch the high side video of the "CSAR" of an HSC crew getting the downed fixed wing Army aircrew from March 2016. Judge for yourself.

Here's the reference for that.

Is this different from the one on youtube where you can see the local cops and firemen just standing around and kids running all over the place?

 

[jmcquate]

I stand corrected, but I'm a little confused, do you guys want to be a primary asset for this mission?

 

[croakerfish]

I stand corrected, but I'm a little confused, do you guys want to be a primary asset for this mission?

Yeah, we definitely do. The problem is we are often mickey mouse about it and get severely mixed messages from leadership.

 

[jmcquate]

OK, but with AF PJ, SOF, and MC TRAP, is it a needed asset, or just a cool thing to do?

 

[robav8r]

There is a VERY big gap between conventional, organic SAR in a permissive environment versus overland CSAR. The Navy (with a few exceptions) has never wanted to pay the man/train/equip bill for CSAR. HC, HS, HM, HSL, HSC, HSM have all dabbled in the mission throughout the years, but frankly, I'd rather have an AFSOC PJ or Marine TRAP crew come rescue me if I was down behind enemy lines.

 

[ChuckMK23]

There is a VERY big gap between conventional, organic SAR in a permissive environment versus overland CSAR. The Navy (with a few exceptions) has never wanted to pay the man/train/equip bill for CSAR. HC, HS, HM, HSL, HSC, HSM have all dabbled in the mission throughout the years, but frankly, I'd rather have an AFSOC PJ or Marine TRAP crew come rescue me if I was down behind enemy lines.

Although it seems in the AF, CSAR is part of thebigger picture - basically telling the Fighter/Bomber folks "be aggressive, put the mission first - if you get shot down we have the resources ready to bring you home no matter what"

True @HackerF15E ?

 

[fc2spyguy]

There is a VERY big gap between conventional, organic SAR in a permissive environment versus overland CSAR. The Navy (with a few exceptions) has never wanted to pay the man/train/equip bill for CSAR. HC, HS, HM, HSL, HSC, HSM have all dabbled in the mission throughout the years, but frankly, I'd rather have an AFSOC PJ or Marine TRAP crew come rescue me if I was down behind enemy lines.

Concur, couple things severely limiting Navy CSAR. #1 gas . . . ~125NM radius, on a really good day? I don't know the strike radius of a hornet, but that little refueling probe thingy makes it a helluva lot longer than ~150 miles . . #2 ability and proficiency. Not trained to it. Working a PR card with your HAC using five different voices as players does not qualify as quality training in my opinion. Medical ability is getting better, but that's also another issue.