A-10 article

[BigBadBoJenkins]

Here's a picture of a couple of A-4s attacking British ships

http://imgur.com/uORkMyu

 

[Uncle Fester]

Here's a picture of a couple of A-4s attacking British ships

The Arg AF Scooter guys had balls, no doubt about that.

 

[Pags]

The ARG has very limited defensive capabilities against threats, especially if they operate close in to the shore. Any asshole with a C-801 on a truck or a few crappy MiGs with iron bombs could give the ARG a very bad day. To have a real AW capability the ARG has to expanded to ESG to get an AW ship in the mix. AV-8s aren't great but, as others have said, it's better than nothing. The big problem is that you can't launch Harriers quickly if you have other things going on like executing an amphibious raid.

 

[Uncle Fester]

The ARG has very limited defensive capabilities against threats, especially if they operate close in to the shore. Any asshole with a C-801 on a truck or a few crappy MiGs with iron bombs could give the ARG a very bad day. To have a real AW capability the ARG has to expanded to ESG to get an AW ship in the mix. AV-8s aren't great but, as others have said, it's better than nothing. The big problem is that you can't launch Harriers quickly if you have other things going on like executing an amphibious raid.

To quote John Goodman, "I think they know this, Pete."

Basically, we did Libya with what was needed. The Brits took the Falklands with what they had. Libya was a weird example of what a MEU could do given a very limited threat picture. If there had been a credible anti-ship threat, I can't for a minute believe they wouldn't have sent a full CSG with extra DDGs, the whole bit. We're so averse to any possibility of casualties that if anything we tend to overestimate threats and plan accordingly. And there's nothing wrong with being conservative that way....I'm just saying that arguing how vulnerable a MEU/ESG is against an air/ASCM threat is kind of a straw-man argument.

I know it's never going to happen, but I think there might be merit in using some of the America-class to revive the old Sea Control Ship concept. Load them up with Marine or maybe even Navy F-35B to make an "air wing lite". I would guess it's more likely we'll have need for extra ship-borne strike capability than to do any no-shit amphibious assaults.

 

[Pags]

I know it's never going to happen, but I think there might be merit in using some of the America-class to revive the old Sea Control Ship concept. Load them up with Marine or maybe even Navy F-35B to make an "air wing lite". I would guess it's more likely we'll have need for extra ship-borne strike capability than to do any no-shit amphibious assaults.

That mission is still listed as a secondary mission for the LHD. Put 60Rs on board for ASW and AV-8s for CAP for a modern interpertation of the CVE.

Also, during OIF, several LHDs were loaded up with ~24 AV-8s to function as a Harrier carrier. Much like the CV, there's a lot of flexibility for what you can use the flight deck real estate for. Just because it usually has an ACE on board doesn't meant that it always has to have an ACE. Here's BAT as a harrier carrier. If you listen carefully, you can hear the Handler screaming.

 

[squeeze]

If you listen carefully, you can hear the Handler screaming.

Probably the easiest float that Handler/Boss ever had. Everyone's on time, they pull out and park by themselves (more or less), and they don't sit "testing" on the tram line all day with no regard to other elements of the air plan.

 

[Pags]

Probably the easiest float that Handler/Boss ever had. Everyone's on time, they pull out and park by themselves (more or less), and they don't sit "testing" on the tram line all day with no regard to other elements of the air plan.

My Airboss was the Handler when BHR took on 24 AV-8s for OIF as the west coast harrier carrier. He said the fly on was a disaster trying to figure out how to get all the jets put away.

I don't even want to think of all the troubles trying to get water and INS alignments to jets on the bow. Or trying to schedule 24 high powers.

 

[nittany03]

If you listen carefully, you can hear the Handler screaming.

"Report to flight deck control. Now. YES, YOU."

Having the 5MC in the space you're working can be entertaining now and then.

 

[Pags]

"Report to flight deck control. Now. YES, YOU."

Having the 5MC in the space you're working can be entertaining now and then.

The 5MC is not a plaything. Unless you're the Boss, Mini, or Handler. And them it's a wonderful play thing.

Great boat story:
Handler over 5mc from FDC: You! Without the float oats on! Get off the flight deck NOW!
Boss: dang, who's the handler yelling at?
Mini: I dunno, looks like some dumb marines.
<tower phone rings>
Handler to mini over phone: Dude. I think I'm in big trouble. Did you hear me yell at those guys?
Mini: I think the whole ship heard you
Handler: well, those guys were the MEU colonel and Sgt Major.

Boss and Mini crack up. Boss tried to apologize to MEU CO later, MEU CO tells him it was ok and the handler was right.

 

[nittany03]

The 5MC is not a plaything. Unless you're the Boss, Mini, or Handler. And them it's a wonderful play thing.

Oops. I meant a 5MC speaker.

Our mission planning space, along with our "maintenance admin" space (issued basically as an apology for our broom closet ready room), were former maintenance shops and had 5MC speakers. No capability to transmit of course, but the "receive" function could be entertaining, hearing the Handler yell at some dumbass on the flight deck while you're in the midst of some boring task.

 

[SynixMan]

My room abutted the Cat 2 equipment room, which had a 5MC speaker. Funny stuff from time to time, no doubt.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Aircraft did CAS long before the A-10 and will do it long after there are no more, it is not the be all to end all. I find it mildly amusing that in this debate is seems to be ignored that the one service that puts the most focus on CAS is also one that has never had the A-10 in its inventory, relying on training and a culture of supporting their folks on the ground coupled with capable aircraft that have proven they can do the job in war. The AC-130 mentioned as the only other real CAS aircraft shows just how USAF myopic the article is.

The article also brings up a few things that A-10 supporters always point out as advantages but might not be as big as they suppose. First off resistance to battle damage, it is great that you can bring a severely damaged A-10 home but a mission kill removes an aircraft from our inventory just as surely as a 'hard kill'. You might have 12 A-10's sitting on deck but only 2 flyable because they the other 10 got seriously damaged needing to get low and slow to make their tank kills. It also ignores the fact that getting low and slow in contested airspace nowadays is a recipe to get blown out of the sky, armored cockpit or not. The A-10 has flown the overwhelming majority of its combat missions in uncontested airspace where it has not had to face modern SAMs, something the F-35 would likely do much better against.

Then there is the gun, while great for killing tanks how much better is it really against some dudes on the ground with AKs? Wouldn't a 20mm would do just as good a job in that scenario? Against tanks? Sure, but then the next place we may find those on the battlefield as a real threat I am guessing the airspace won't be as permissive an operating environment as we have fought in the past 14 years.

Finally there comes the simple fact of age, the A-10 is getting old and that isn't always a good thing for an aircraft. While we have flown some aircraft for much longer, like the B-52 and KC-135, they often have more unique roles that cannot be duplicated in other current aircraft and have not been flown in such demanding roles their entire careers. I would hazard a guess that the amount of stress put on even B-52's their entire career is orders of magnitude less than the average A-1o that are probably 2 decades younger. The modifications, upgrades and monitoring to ensure just the airframes themselves are safe will almost certainly increase over time. Then there is the need to ensure the mission systems keep up to a level where the aircraft can just simply operate along with its more modern brethren in the same airspace and against more modern anti-aircraft threats.

I get the affection and attachment that many folks have to the A-10 but some of its more fervent supporters seem to letting emotion get in the way of facts and simple reality. Sooner or later the A-10 will have to retire, if not now then when and with what? And do we even really need one?

Yes - you need a dedicated CAS platform. If that means rebuilding it, so be it. Don't mention the cost - whatever it is, it will be a drop in the bucket compared to the TRILLION dollar sink that is the F-35. As a side note, Textron is trying to sell the Scorpion subsonic jet to relieve flight hours from the F-18 - likewise you don't want to run up flight hours on the expensice F-35 when the much cheaper A-10 can get low, slow and ugly much better/
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...in-scorpion-jet-as-textron-seeks-usaf-417101/

Watching a Smithsonian channel special on the A-10 tonight. Very in depth - it has a small video on the Army's advanced Cheyenne helicopter that scared the Air Force into developing the A-10. Did not know that during the runup to Desert Storm, USAF General Horner trying to keep the A-10 out of theatre and then was over-ruled by CENTCOM's Stormin' Norman.

Anybody got an idea of what the flight hour cost of the Hog is compared to the other jets? After all, war is money. Granted every weapon is not suitable for every environment - but how many times have we had to fight in a LIC versus a IAD? I like technology as much as anyone - but sometimes a Louisville slugger is the right tool for the job.

I love my helos, and have nothing but respect for the star trek fast movers, but there is nothing more menacing than a flight of Hogs loaded for bear. Well, maybe a formation of B-52's opening their bomb bay doors...

 

[Jublov]

View attachment 14523

Here's a picture of a couple of A-4s attacking British ships

http://imgur.com/uORkMyu

Great photo but scary

 

[Flash]

Yes - you need a dedicated CAS platform. If that means rebuilding it, so be it. Don't mention the cost - whatever it is, it will be a drop in the bucket compared to the TRILLION dollar sink that is the F-35. As a side note, Textron is trying to sell the Scorpion subsonic jet to relieve flight hours from the F-18 - likewise you don't want to run up flight hours on the expensice F-35 when the much cheaper A-10 can get low, slow and ugly much better.

Okay, soyou do need a dedicated CAS platform, who says it has to be an A-10 though?

Watching a Smithsonian channel special on the A-10 tonight. Very in depth - it has a small video on the Army's advanced Cheyenne helicopter that scared the Air Force into developing the A-10. Did not know that during the runup to Desert Storm, USAF General Horner trying to keep the A-10 out of theatre and then was over-ruled by CENTCOM's Stormin' Norman.

That story is apocryphal, they were among the first aircraft to deploy to Saudi Arabia after the Iraqis rolled into Kuwait. Plus, his son flew Warthogs in Desert Storm and it would have made for an awkward Thanksgiving if he had screwed his boy out of a chance to go to war.

Anybody got an idea of what the flight hour cost of the Hog is compared to the other jets? After all, war is money. Granted every weapon is not suitable for every environment - but how many times have we had to fight in a LIC versus a IAD? I like technology as much as anyone - but sometimes a Louisville slugger is the right tool for the job.

And sometimes you just need a random stick, not even a jet. An A-29 Super Tucano can do many of the things an A-10 does in a low-intensity conflict for a fraction of the cost so why not use those instead? Do you really need a 30mm anti-tank cannon and a crapload of armor to take on the Taliban or ISIS?

 

[Randy Daytona]

That mission is still listed as a secondary mission for the LHD. Put 60Rs on board for ASW and AV-8s for CAP for a modern interpertation of the CVE.

Also, during OIF, several LHDs were loaded up with ~24 AV-8s to function as a Harrier carrier. Much like the CV, there's a lot of flexibility for what you can use the flight deck real estate for. Just because it usually has an ACE on board doesn't meant that it always has to have an ACE. Here's BAT as a harrier carrier. If you listen carefully, you can hear the Handler screaming.

Turnabout is fair play. Just because it has cats doesn't mean it has to carry jets. The world's biggest gators...

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-time-when-two-super-carriers-became-floating-army-h-1647968681