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Clinton/Obama vs McCain & ?

phrogpilot73 said:
McCain's against the FairTax, and tends to waffle on issues more than I would like...
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Out of curiosity, on which issues has he waffled on? Looking at the past year, hes been out front of the Surge, Immigration and Earmarks more than anybody else, the former two killing him politically until the surge started working. I think his quote in April when he was lambasted for supporting a "failed strategy" was something along the lines of "The success of American troops is more important than any political office I could aspire to."

And in the face of defeat, even ideological pols do well to work for what the people apparently want (i.e. immigration). That wasnt so much of a waffle as trying to make some headway on an issue that is by no means an easy fix. At least he recognizes the deportation of 12 million people is impractical at best, especially when the reality is many of them are incredibly integrated into our economy for better or worse. I mean, I disagree with Sen McCain on a few issues (Campaign finance reform...) but at least I know where he stands. Hes one of the few politicians I believe when he says something.
 
+1

The thing that struck me about the debates regarding immigration is how most of the candidates seemed to think they could magically wave a wand and deport all 12 million immigrants without any repurcussions. Of course, that's what most conservative minded people want to hear. The reality is that we have a lot of illegals with natural-born children. We also rely on them for cheap labor in construction, restaurants, and farming.

I also wonder if people dislike Latino illegal immigrants so much moreso because they speak a different language rather than the fact that they come here, considering almost every average Joe citizen benefits off of them being here when they buy fruit at the supermarket.

I don't like the idea of an amnesty program or anything like that, but in a practical sense it's the only thing that would work. Of course, that also assumes that we tighten border security to siginificantly reduce the amount of illegals coming in.
 
Spekkio said:
+1

The thing that struck me about the debates regarding immigration is how most of the candidates seemed to think they could magically wave a wand and deport all 12 million immigrants without any repurcussions. Of course, that's what most conservative minded people want to hear. The reality is that we have a lot of illegals with natural-born children. We also rely on them for cheap labor in construction, restaurants, and farming.
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I think we need to change that, with the reality of the ability to travel halfway around the world in just a few hours instead of the months it took when that law went into effect. There are people who travel here just to have their kids so they can become citizens. If you don't believe that, here is an example:

http://fileus.org/dept/citizenship/02-05-26-latimes-birth_tourism_asia.html

As a result of this phenomenon South Korea actually changed its law in 2005 so that a male had to serve in the military even if he was a US citizen, the main reason being they were using their American citizenship to avoid the draft. This is but one example of the abuse of the system.

If someone is a citizen or a legal resident then their kids can become citizens, if they are here illegally or as 'tourists' they should not. Simple as that.

Spekkio said:
I also wonder if people dislike Latino illegal immigrants so much more so because they speak a different language rather than the fact that they come here, considering almost every average Joe citizen benefits off of them being here when they buy fruit at the supermarket.
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I think the largest difference between the current wave of immigrants and the ones from the late 19th and early 20th centuries is language. The wave of immigrants that went through Ellis Island were from a wide variety of countries with many different languages. While they spoke their native language at home, English was necessary and learning it was a point of pride. The current wave is from many different countries but they mostly speak Spanish, and there is no taboo with speaking it in public and not learning English. When my father grew up he spoke Slovakian at home but he was forbidden to speak it outside the family, he was an American and he was supposed to speak English. I have trouble with many of the services in my neighborhood because many employees have just a bare understanding of the English language, if they understand me at all.

And why should illegal immigrants get a free pass when I have spent thousands of dollars (paid the US government) and a heck of a lot of man hours making sure that my wife is legal? Deporting them is not the answer, but we should not roll over and ignore the problem (reforming legal immigration would help, but that is another rant). McCain is one of the few candidates that has a reasonable and realistic answer to the problem.


//End of rant........
 
Well, that's one of the things I like best about my man Jack: he'll tell you what he thinks, even if it costs him votes. The unfortunate thing is that he's not getting any credit over doing that and being right when it came to Iraq. He'd been saying for years, what we're doing now isn't working, we need more troops, etc. When the surge went into effect, all the MSM was throwing around "McCain's a tool of Bush for supporting the war" (which is really asinine given their history) and then when it worked, the MSM just sort of shrugged and forgot about it.
 
Spekkio said:
The thing that struck me about the debates regarding immigration is how most of the candidates seemed to think they could magically wave a wand and deport all 12 million immigrants without any repurcussions. Of course, that's what most conservative minded people want to hear. The reality is that we have a lot of illegals with natural-born children. We also rely on them for cheap labor in construction, restaurants, and farming.
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I agree. I think most candidates on both sides tend to stress how quickly they can accomplish something in order to get elected, when the reality is that it's not quick. A good example would be the Democrats/Liberal minded people who tend to think that they can magically wave a wand an have all the troops back from Iraq. It's going to take months, if not years and an assload of money to bring back all the troops & equipment. Between strat lift/black bottom availability & cost, wash rack availability, wash-down, agricultural inspections, customs, etc...

When our MEU departed Kuwait, it took us a week to get through the wash-down and ag inspection. We were only 2,000 men, women and associated support equipment...
 
For me it's not a language issue; it's the total disregard for the legally established process to become an American citizen, which has now been demonized by activist groups to be some form of discrimination.

How millions of immigrants were perfectly able to work within the system over the last 100 years, yet somehow that is no longer an acceptable process to certain people, is beyond me. Of course, we only have ourselves to blame due to lack of enforcement.

Freedom (or Liberty) may be an unalienable right in this country, but that doesn't make it free, nor an entitlement. I may have been born into citizenship in the country, but with two grandfathers, three uncles and me all having worn (wearing) the uniform - I think my family has done it's part to earn (and help secure) that freedom since they landed at Ellis.

You want to maintain you're native national identity while living free - start a revolution in your own country. Hell, the CIA might even help.
 
Scoob said:
For me it's not a language issue; it's the total disregard for the legally established process to become an American citizen, which has now been demonized by activist groups to be some form of discrimination.

How millions of immigrants were perfectly able to work within the system over the last 100 years, yet somehow that is no longer an acceptable process to certain people, is beyond me. Of course, we only have ourselves to blame due to lack of enforcement.

Freedom (or Liberty) may be an unalienable right in this country, but that doesn't make it free, nor an entitlement. I may have been born into citizenship in the country, but with two grandfathers, three uncles and me all having worn (wearing) the uniform - I think my family has done it's part to earn (and help secure) that freedom since they landed at Ellis.

You want to maintain you're native national identity while living free - start a revolution in your own country. Hell, the CIA might even help.
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I agree with you to a certain point, but my ancestors who went throguh the process at Ellis Island went through a very simple process that had little in the way of requirements. Today it is very hard to get into this country legally, even those who are willing to play by all the rules.

The immigration process for my wife has been very difficult, frought with delays and mounds of unnecessary paperwork. For example, my wife's green card renewal has been delayed even though we turned in the forms on time. And if they lose your application, you have to pay that fee all over again, even though you may have proof that you already paid it. And the fees run into the hundreds for some of the forms, of which there are many.

We still favor family based immigration over skills based immigration. I believe the number of slots for family members (that includes uncles and cousins, not just immediate family) far outweighs that for skilled immigrants, like my neighbor from India who is a software engineer.

Legal immigration is the way to go, but we need to do our part too and unfvck the current process. It is ia nightmare of bureaucracy and paperwork.
 
Personally, I'd be fine with an "Ellis Island" process. Come over the border at controlled immigration points, have your name and vital stats recorded, be photographed, screened for infectious disease and drug addiction, checked against watch lists and wanted lists. If you're good to go, then come on in and go to work.
 
Flash said:
Legal immigration is the way to go, but we need to do our part too and unfvck the current process. It is a nightmare of bureaucracy and paperwork.
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The unfortunate reality of so many government programs.

Can't wait until the Dems do that to health care!!!:thumbdn_1
 
Spekkio said:
+1

The thing that struck me about the debates regarding immigration is how most of the candidates seemed to think they could magically wave a wand and deport all 12 million immigrants without any repurcussions. Of course, that's what most conservative minded people want to hear. The reality is that we have a lot of illegals with natural-born children. We also rely on them for cheap labor in construction, restaurants, and farming.

I also wonder if people dislike Latino illegal immigrants so much moreso because they speak a different language rather than the fact that they come here, considering almost every average Joe citizen benefits off of them being here when they buy fruit at the supermarket.

I don't like the idea of an amnesty program or anything like that, but in a practical sense it's the only thing that would work. Of course, that also assumes that we tighten border security to siginificantly reduce the amount of illegals coming in.
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This is the type of thing that you have to live around to understand. While I'll never argue with you that immigrants contribute to our economy, there are downsides as well. Here in socal traffic is a huge issue, and everyday 600 vehicles come over the border from mexico. Healthcare, many hospitals won't turn away uninsured women that are pregnant, costing hospitals millions every year. Education, highschool populations increasing and in many areas are majority mexican. Communication, like Flash I've had many issues trying to communicate in fast food restaurants, convenient stores etc. Attitude, some have a bad one, believing they are "entitled" to certain rights (that protest a few months back is a good example). Cheap labor and economic benefit has limits, people need to come to this country properly and then learn the language.
 
** clink ** here are my two cents:

I support McCain. If he does not win the nomination, then I like Obama. If neither win...then I support the Stephen Colbert write in campaign suggested earlier.

My biggest concern...who will get us out of Chinese debt the fastest.
 
feenix said:
My biggest concern...who will get us out of Chinese debt the fastest.
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Since I know nothing about economics beyond the basic freshman 101 crap, which I mostly forgot, maybe someone can answer this:

There has to be some good reason why being a debtor nation is a good thing. If it was really that bad, the guys in Washington would've done something about it by now. And we wouldn't still be the highest goods consuming nation in the world.

So what's the real scoop with being a debtor vs. creditor nation, and why are so few politicians trying to tackle this beast?
 
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