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CFIT, Powerlines and other hazards

ChuckMK23

ChuckMK23

5 bullets veteran!
pilot
As someone who almost flew into powerlines at night - it's a real hazard and it will bite you. Makes my stomach churn wheen I read stuff like this.

Powerlines (or flying into them) takes about 2-3 EMS helos per year pretty consistently. The FAA has been scratching their heads on this one for years...

SO maybe a little discussion (edited for new thread) - what do YOU as a crewmember/pilot to keep something like this from happening to you?
 
First of all, my thoughts go out to the families. Terrible tradgedy.

Second, maybe one of you more technically experienced guys could elaborate on this...but is there any reason a system like a terrain following radar couldn't be used to detect a power line? Not that a current system is used for this...but perhaps could be adapted for the use. I realize they are a relatively small cross-section...but there is quite a bit of total surface. Perhaps a radar reflective coating could be utilized in wire sections prone to this sort of mishap?

Looking forward to hearing some CRM and operational suggestions.
 
Scoober - Wire strikes is the biggest killer in Australia when it comes to helo accidents. Been about five so far this year.

There are a number of systems around but most are expensive, apart from putting marker balls on the wires.

I was under the impression that under NVGs the wires were much more visible but have never done it myself so this is just heresay, someone here could confirm that.

Ned
 
scoober78 said:
First of all, my thoughts go out to the families. Terrible tradgedy.

Second, maybe one of you more technically experienced guys could elaborate on this...but is there any reason a system like a terrain following radar couldn't be used to detect a power line? Not that a current system is used for this...but perhaps could be adapted for the use. I realize they are a relatively small cross-section...but there is quite a bit of total surface. Perhaps a radar reflective coating could be utilized in wire sections prone to this sort of mishap?

Looking forward to hearing some CRM and operational suggestions.
Click to expand...

New thread to discuss this issue. Please refrain from mentioning the original thread or it's topic.

The low-tech solution is proper preflight planning and updated charts.

Brett
 
scoober78 said:
First of all, my thoughts go out to the families. Terrible tradgedy.

Second, maybe one of you more technically experienced guys could elaborate on this...but is there any reason a system like a terrain following radar couldn't be used to detect a power line? Not that a current system is used for this...but perhaps could be adapted for the use. I realize they are a relatively small cross-section...but there is quite a bit of total surface. Perhaps a radar reflective coating could be utilized in wire sections prone to this sort of mishap?

Looking forward to hearing some CRM and operational suggestions.
Click to expand...

Millimeter wave radar was looked at pretty seriously in the 90's - I believe the Army funded a number of research programs - in the end the systems were expensive and difficult to field operationally.

Brett hints at the solution in part - good flight planning helps. Although in my case was landing at a night makeshift LZ - the first responders swore up and down over the radio that the LZ was obstacle free, and I had made two or three orbits with a NightSun blazing away looking for power lines or anything else.

Long story short the power lines were sloping into the terrain - I got a glance of them with peripheral vision on final approach. A little power and an "excuse me" to the poor doctor in the left seat, and we went around and came in crosswind. It was only when the power levers were at idle and I was doing the weight and balance for the next leg home that I had the "holy sh!t" moment in my head.
Ugh.

We had an S-76 in Lexington that year - dual piloted IFR ship mind you - fly into high tension lines with the loss of crew and aircraft. UGH!
 
NVGs don't always make it easy to see the power lines. It's easier to see the towers, but not the lines themselves.

Concur that a good map of updated hazards is key....preferably in a scale that's useful. And if at possible, fly your area during the day and find the all the widowmakers and power lines when they're easy to see.
 
ChuckMK23 said:
Millimeter wave radar was looked at pretty seriously in the 90's - I believe the Army funded a number of research programs - in the end the systems were expensive and difficult to field operationally.
Click to expand...


I'm sure it is...however, at some point, if the Navy is serious about reducing fatalities towards zero, as they have stated at every safety standown I've ever attended, it seems to me it will have to be looked at.

Preflight planning certainly solves some of this issue, but isn't it true in military aviation that we won't get to plan everywhere we go? Thinking of CSAR etc...

With this countries technology policy (military development of new technology), if this isn't done by the military, it likely never will be.
 
I have always found that FLIR and good CHUM with the hash marks on your route to be the best for finding wires.

Unfortunately, not all of our aircraft have FLIR.

On a final note, one thing that can save lives are the wire cutters. They don't add that much weight and are a simple addition and can really save a life.
 
scoober78 said:
I'm sure it is...however, at some point, if the Navy is serious about reducing fatalities towards zero, as they have stated at every safety standown I've ever attended, it seems to me it will have to be looked at.

Preflight planning certainly solves some of this issue, but isn't it true in military aviation that we won't get to plan everywhere we go? Thinking of CSAR etc...

With this countries technology policy (military development of new technology), if this isn't done by the military, it likely never will be.
Click to expand...

Despite what is put out at SSDs, it doesn't seem like an issue that's worth spending an exorbitant amount of money on, given the relatively small number of mishaps caused by power lines. One could argue that a system that radiates would be undesirable in Indian country and that the risk of giving away one's position would be of more concern than avoiding the 1 in a million chance of hitting power lines.

Brett
 
NVGs and wires

Check Six said:
I was under the impression that under NVGs the wires were much more visible but have never done it myself so this is just heresay, someone here could confirm that.

Ned
Click to expand...

When MAWTS-1 stood up their NiteLab in 1988, they hosted all users Night Vision Conference and debuted their ability to use NVGs to look at a minature terrain model (with wires) from multiple view points with varying intensity of illuminence and angles. Wires would stand out in some situations and as they rotated the source and/or illuminence, they would disappear before your eyes as would certain obstructions. Made me a believer in the potential hazards that lurk everywhere.
 
hscs said:
^^ concur. Passive FLIR systems really do work the best...
Click to expand...

Yeah, but adding the FLIR into the duties of the non flying pilot is a big task, particularly during an evolution as complex as CSAR.
 
hscs said:
I have always found that FLIR and good CHUM with the hash marks on your route to be the best for finding wires.

Unfortunately, not all of our aircraft have FLIR.

On a final note, one thing that can save lives are the wire cutters. They don't add that much weight and are a simple addition and can really save a life.
Click to expand...


FLIR can help to an extent, it depends on the quality of the FLIR. I cant stress enough the well made map for a mission; in CONUS there is a pretty good tracking on wires in training areas on the Hazard Maps that every safety shop should maintain: before every flight does your map match the hazard map? after every flight does the hazard map match the hazards you saw? Did you highlight the obstacles in red before walking/briefing? (growing up I had to make maps that had every tower and pwerline within 20 miles of my route highlighted in red marker)
OCONUS there is/should be plenty of sattelite imagery to construct a map of your route objective area.
A wire cutter will not really help you in most cases beyond very thin residential powerlines; sometimes it is fact the electricity vice the impact/crash that kills the crew. Wire cutters are little more than conversation pieces.

There are plenty of suggestions like MMW radar etc, remember that adds weight and reduces power margins increasing the risk to other aspects of the mission.

I have lost friends to hitting powerlines/towers both in CONUS training and downrange but the reality is that it doesnt happen that often when compared to the hours flown. There is no magic bullet, there is the crew who must plan and fly the mission so as not to hit an obstacle and avoid the other threats.
 
One of the problems here in New Zealand, especially in the mountains is that a lot of the farmers etc will string up a new wire overnight. I was out hunting with a crew in an MD500D a couple of years ago and the day before we had hunted the same valley we were in.

Then all of a sudden we hit a wire that wasnt there yesterday. Seemed the farmer had put it up to get power to a hut on the other side of the river. This sort of thing is very common here and accounts for at least three or four helicopters and ag aircraft a year.

Ned
 
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