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Why do Navy 60's not fly with forward cockpit doors removed a la Army?

ChuckMK23

ChuckMK23

Standing by for the RIF !
pilot
Saw this pic on Navy.mil and it struck me that on Army H-60's you almost always see the front/cockpit doors removed for over water or warm weather flying and Navy H-60's you simply don't.

Why is that? I can understand on the B/F/R platforms the need to cool avionics with ECS. But on the MH-60S think of the visibility improvements and the ditching egress benefits.

I can't imagine it's a NATOPS thing - since the S is based on the same L/M airdrame the Army uses.

So what's the scoop?

web_070416-N-6501M-020.jpg
 
hscs

hscs

Registered User
pilot
yes, raptor is correct. The 60S still has plenty of avionic to keep cool, so it has the same ECS that the legacy birds do. Besides, who wants their lunch or kneeboard paper blown out the door.
 
SteveG75

SteveG75

Retired and starting that second career
None
Spent all last summer on Al Asad with a couple of Army Blackhawk units. Never saw a UH-60 with the front doors removed.
 
B

bobbybrock

Registered User
None
Army H-60's actually have a system that keeps the pilot and crew cool. It plugs into a bladder under the survival vest. When I was on active duty we used it and it worked very well. While in country we still flew with doors off for better visability. We all thought that with doors off we'd lose maps and other knee board products but we didn't. With both door off there isn't a vacum that is created.
 
russ651

russ651

Registered User
None
If you're not flying doors off then you're missing out, but then again, I drive with the A/C on and my windows down too. I guess it's just personal preference.
 
ChuckMK23

ChuckMK23

Standing by for the RIF !
pilot
hscs said:
yes, raptor is correct. The 60S still has plenty of avionic to keep cool, so it has the same ECS that the legacy birds do. Besides, who wants their lunch or kneeboard paper blown out the door.
Click to expand...

I think Bobby helped us understand that there is no risk of crap being blown out ..

I have another point on the avionics/ECS issue on the 60S - my guess is the MH-60's that Nightstalkers/SOAR flies have equal amounts of avionics - even older generation that still had glass CRT's for MFD's - point is thety fly with doors off all the time.

Not meant to dis anyone - I just wonder if it's an "urban myth" kind of thing.

Chuck
 
B

bobbybrock

Registered User
None
Chuck,
Until OIF/OEF cockpit doors off ops was not something you saw very often. The 160th guys have been doing it for a while. Our operators manual actually states that " flight with cockpit doors removed is prohibited ". But the powers to be feel that it is useful to have them off . It goes pretty high up the chain for approval plus an AWR from the pin heads at Redstone. It has become pretty common practice in the sand box. The Navy might see it as a structural problem. The doors do add to the structural integrity of the air frame since it is semimonocoque fuselage.
That was the reason I was given for the statement given in our operators manual of why cockpit doors off ops were prohibited.
 
B

bert

Enjoying the real world
pilot
Contributor
The doors do contribute to the structural integrity for both B/R and blackhawk style airframes. The benefit is mostly in impact attenuation.
 
ChuckMK23

ChuckMK23

Standing by for the RIF !
pilot
bert said:
The doors do contribute to the structural integrity for both B/R and blackhawk style airframes. The benefit is mostly in impact attenuation.
Click to expand...

Good info - this clears up a lot. I had no idea about the structural integrity issue - it makes sense now that you spell it out - esp in a ditching or hard landing scenario.

I think it's also interesting that the army -1 specifically prohibits it yet the chain of command issued a waiver - I don't know of many instances where a similar thing was done with NATOPS and wing/type/operational commander.

Anyone know of examples where a Helo NATOPS "shall not" or "prohibited" , or limitation was officially waved for operational reasons?hb
 
hscs

hscs

Registered User
pilot
None that I know of -- we haven't even considered the idea, even in the heat of summer.
 
Mango

Mango

New Member
pilot
Doors and whatnot

Long time reader and first time poster. I'm a former SH-60B guy gone UH-60A Natl Guard. Doors are on unless you are in Iraq, and even then it takes some doing (high powered paperwork) to get the doors off. No ECS = pretty f'ing hot with or without doors.

For all you bravo drivers out there, the Guard (and the real Army too) welcomes your experience. Not a bad gig and the flying is good.
 
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