TSA Headed for Extinction?

[webmaster]

Military members on orders are exempt from the "random" search. Key is, you have to tell them at your first check in, prior to the issuance of tickets. Show your ID and your orders, and you are good to go. Forget to do that, or prompt the airlines ticketing agent, and tough luck Sailor, you are in the lottery

Try bringing back SV2's (sans flares and pyrotechnics), that is ALWAYS fun.

 

[nittany03]

Yeah, like the standard SV2 knife would ever cut anything anyway. I think I'd have better luck braining someone with the pommel. I found out about the "military members on orders" clause as a mid on cruise. Of course this is AFTER I'd set off the metal detector with the belt buckle of my summer whites, taken off my belt, sent it through seperately with my car keys, AND been wanded. Granted this was 6mos after September 11th, but the screeners were still getting the same "WTF??" looks while wanding a pack of mids in full uniform.

The whole situation reminds me of LTC Grossman's article on sheep, sheepdogs and wolves. Full article is here. In particular,

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.


Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

 

[wink]

- Sorry, got to call BS on anyone that claims they got pushed to the "full check" area even before they got to the metal dectors. The same book with all their stupid rules says you must go through metal dector. You just aren't that special or dangerous.

-Not every postal worker carries a gun. In fact, very few do. Only Postal Inspectors carry guns. They have law enforcement authority no matter how silly that sounds. Their training lasts weeks and includes all the same firearms training as any federal law officer.

-Pilots can be armed (FFDO Program) as A4s said. There are still too many rules and restrictions, but the fact is, if a pilot applies, and goes to the training ( one week no pay, airline or otherwise), he will have a gun in the cockpit. I don't believe terrorists knowing there is a gun in the cockpit is a security threat. The bad guys can get weapons other ways to begin with. Terrorists want soft targets. If they knew they had to deal with a gun, from an Air Marshall or pilot, they would go somewhere else. Any person that takes a weapon from armed authority has a homicidal mind set. They will kill sooner or later. There is no other reason to take a weapon from someone.

-Nail clippers and a few of the more ridiculous restricted items have been allowed since Director Stone took over months ago.

Lets face it, there are thousands of TSA screeners and many are not as sharp as the nail clipper they may want to take from you. As an organization TSA has come a long way but still has alot of work to do. Personally, I'd rather have private screening with close government scrutiny, required training and standards. Not unlike the FAA handles the airlines. I get just as frustrated as anyone else when I encounter the TSA. But, in most cases those guys are following stupid orders. Give them a break. You will follow stupid orders your entire career. Consider this. If you make a mistake and crash an aircraft in the Navy you will probably not kill more than a dozen people. And on top of that, unless you were totally irresponsible and purposely disregarded procedure, you would not only keep your commission (get another job in the Navy) but keep your wings!! If a screener lets a terrorist on board an aircraft with a weapon he will be partly responsible for the deaths of hundreds or thousands and WILL lose his job and his mistake as well as his face and name will likely be all over the news.

If you have a problem with TSA screener, or the process, wait until you are through security and then ask politely and calmly to speak with a supervisor. My experience is that they are happy to tell you what the rules are and why thy do certain things. I imagine they aren't supposed to tell the public some stuff, but I have learned plenty simply by asking the right guy. It will also lower your blood pressure too.

 

[Fly Navy]

In response to that, we debated this somewhat hotly in my government class. My main argument against knowingly arming pilots was that if the would-be terrorists know where the weapons are, that presents a problem, especially when the weapons are guaranteed in the cockpit.

You're kidding, right? That's the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard.

 

[wink]

.. it's also total hindsight, and monday morning quarterbacking IMO.

True enough. That is why A4s observation is an argument for guns in the cockpit NOW!! I'm not a 9/10 kinda guy. Terrorists have made airliners part of their battlespace and continue to plan and probe that battlegraound. We must defend it. Properly trained pilots with firearms is the best defense dollar for dollar. Intelligently expanded, the armed pilot (FFDO) program could be a significant force multipler across the aviation security spectrum, not just a footnote.

 

[A4sForever]

While you can't argue this... it's also total hindsight, and monday morning quarterbacking IMO. No one had ever fathomed that something like this could take place prior to 9/11

No, Pat, that's just not right. I can completely rest secure in the knowledge that if the pilots had been armed, trained, and mentally prepared --- 9/11 as we know it would not have happened. Complacency and PC took over the airlines, government, and society many years ago and let a little known law expire that authorized pilots to carry sidearms. (Think: protecting the mail) ... but armed pilots was the last thing a risk-adverse industry and government oversight wanted ...

I can't go into detail, obviously, but I think it safe to say that airline managements and "consultants" decided a decade or so ago that "go along-get along" with hijackers was the best policy. Completely the wrong approach. That's the approach of the weak and timid -- the victim, if you will. The criminal mind does not lend itself to soft, liberal, urban "consultants" and this horrific event was just a matter of time in coming. There have been many other examples of people crashing airplanes to psychotic purpose prior to 9/11. 9/11 was just the most dramatic .... good discussion, however. People need to know these things.

 

[vegita1220]

No, Pat, that's just not right. I can completely rest secure in the knowledge that if the pilots had been armed, trained, and mentally prepared --- 9/11 as we know it would not have happened. Complacency and PC took over the airlines, government, and society many years ago and let a little known law expire that authorized pilots to carry sidearms. (Think: protecting the mail) ... but armed pilots was the last thing a risk-adverse industry and government oversight wanted ...

I can't go into detail, obviously, but I think it safe to say that airline managements and "consultants" decided a decade or so ago that "go along-get along" with hijackers was the best policy. Completely the wrong approach. That's the approach of the weak and timid -- the victim, if you will. The criminal mind does not lend itself to soft, liberal, urban "consultants" and this horrific event was just a matter of time in coming. There have been many other examples of people crashing airplanes to psychotic purpose prior to 9/11. 9/11 was just the most dramatic .... good discussion, however. People need to know these things.

I know El Al(the Israelis) had a policy of "aggressive" flying and cockpit security even before 9/11...seems to have worked for them so far. Any comments on them? I'm sure you must've run into them a few times in your career...

 

[A4sForever]

I know El Al(the Israelis) had a policy of "aggressive" flying and cockpit security even before 9/11...seems to have worked for them so far. Any comments on them? I'm sure you must've run into them a few times in your career...

Everytime we land at an airport for a layover and I see El Al parked on the ramp (with the ever-present armed guard patrolling -- they know how to "do it" right ) ... the question I always pose is:


"WHAT HOTEL DOES THE EL AL CREW USE FOR THEIR LAYOVER ..... " 'cause that's where I want to go.

 

[Fly Navy]

I know El Al(the Israelis) had a policy of "aggressive" flying and cockpit security even before 9/11...seems to have worked for them so far. Any comments on them? I'm sure you must've run into them a few times in your career...

Like Pat said, they don't have to deal with the bleeding hearts that we do. El Al is in the real world where people die and people want to kill them. Some of the morons in this country don't live in that world.

 

[A4sForever]

....The best safety in the world right now on an airplane is that of the public. I think that if a bunch of terrorists stood up and decided to try anything, everyone on board would probably spazz out and take them down themselves.

Good point -- the pax -- and probably more truth to it than one might imagine. I have had two post 9/11 "incidents" onboard and the pax --- large, male, close-cropped, U.S. military types onboard that I spoke to before the cabin door was shut --- have been my "onboard security team". They are a big help .....

 

[A4sForever]

Air marshal program in disarray, insiders say

By Blake Morrison, USA TODAY

Two federal air marshals engage in tactical handgun training on the gun range at the FAA Technical Center in Pomona, New Jersey.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For years, the government touted federal air marshals as the best of the best — an "elite corps" of undercover officers trained to stop hijackings on commercial flights. (editorial note: "elite corps ??? That's total B.S. )

But today, after rushing to hire thousands of new marshals, the program is so beset with problems that sources say at least 80 marshals have quit, and other marshals say they are considering a class-action lawsuit over working conditions that they fear put travelers at risk.

Documents obtained by USA TODAY and interviews with more than a dozen current and former marshals from around the nation suggest many have grown disillusioned with a program that one says has become "like security-guard training for the mall."

Hiring standards for marshals added since Sept. 11 have been lowered dramatically, sources say. No longer must applicants pass a difficult marksmanship course that used to be the make-or-break test for the program. In addition, many new hires were given guns and badges and put aboard flights before extensive background checks were completed.

At some of the agency's more than 20 regional offices, the program has struggled to provide ammunition for shooting practice, sources say. Despite the undercover nature of the work, officials have implemented a dress code that marshals worry identifies them to terrorists. And scheduling has been haphazard: While some marshals have not flown for weeks at a time, sources say others are working 12- to 16-hour days and are falling asleep or getting sick aboard flights.

Should be a "wake-up" for all ... for the rest of the article, try this link:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2002/2002-08-15-air-marshals.htm

 

[wink]

There is a lot wrong with the Air Marshall program but the dress code is a red herring. Way back when their former Secret Service agent boss took over he apparently went over board on the dress code. He now simply asks they look "professional". I have yet to see an Air Marshall attired so as to look out of place on any of my flights. You can't have an Air Marshall dressed in T-shirts and jeans flying first class. Like wise, a three piece suit flying to HI or the the USVI would look out of place. The Marshalls are not required to wear a suit or even a tie. That is a fact and I wish we could get past the attire thing and address the programs real problems.

 

[KBayDog]

At some of the agency's more than 20 regional offices, the program has struggled to provide ammunition for shooting practice, sources say. Despite the undercover nature of the work, officials have implemented a dress code that marshals worry identifies them to terrorists. And scheduling has been haphazard: While some marshals have not flown for weeks at a time, sources say others are working 12- to 16-hour days and are falling asleep or getting sick aboard flights.

Hmm...Low ammo, irregular hours, dress codes...this is different from our military HOW? As a matter of fact, I seem to recall a certain Special Force whose "undercover" members had to shave their beards and look more "military" not too long ago. Wonder if they felt like their duties were compromised or if their lives were endangered.

 

[A4sForever]

There is a lot wrong with the Air Marshall program but the dress code is a red herring. .........That is a fact and I wish we could get past the attire thing and address the programs real problems.

Ooooo ... I don't know, entirely, Wink. And I DO know what you are referring to, and while I agree with the general tenent of your comment .... ( geez, what a whimp I am turning into ... must be the effect of the AirWarriors smile campaign I have been on ever since some pseudo-influential, self-conflicted, insecure poster attempted to "rip" me a new one in a place far, far, away ... ???) The FED "dress code" from on high IS a red herring, but.......

To wit: I had to tell one of the FAM's on HNL-SEA to go change his shirt --- put another shirt on --- as the sidearm on his hip was "printing" through his choice of shirt -- a Polo shirt. Not good headwork. He was in F/C and "looked" entirely the Haole tourist part --- but the headwork was lacking, as I stated. How about .... WEAR AN ALOHA SHIRT OUT OF YOUR SLACKS ..... do you think the Feds could figure anything out?

And as for the military "types" ??? .... I have flown many S/F operators into Manila and many other Asian airports --- no "news" there -- and I could pick them out in a crowd when viewed from @ 35,000 feet. Clean-cut, well built (* I'm starting to sweat * get control* ) , round-eyed, high & tight haircuts ...... do you think the latest Filipino "freedom fighter", in the current guise of Abu Sayyef, is going to have any trouble picking them out @ the airport?? I don't think so ........

While we're on the subject of Abu Sayyef, remember the NPA, the Huks, and all the rest? The P.I. is (in)famous for its "political" band-of-the-month club, when in reality the P.I. version(s) are really bandits, usually with no deeper idological bent than the nearest wallet of opportunity. . And the P.I. bandits are major league A-Holes, as well ..... .

Just gimme my gun, lots of government ammo to train realistically with, lock the cockpit door, and put a large, mean senior FA with a chipped front tooth in front of said door, and we will do just fine with any problems emanating from the cabin crowd.

(I need to squeeze some limes for Margaritas .... going to my happy place, now .... )

 

[wink]

Just gimme my gun, lots of government ammo to train realistically with, lock the cockpit door, and put a large, mean senior FA with a chipped front tooth in front of said door, and we will do just fine with any problems emanating from the cabin crowd.

A pro that lets his weapon print comes under the "other problems" catagory. At least he wasn't wearing the coat and tie so much of the public seems to think they have to wear.

Still, I like your strategy and make it my own. I have flown with a FA several times lately who is a retired LAPD officer. Very reassuring having him in the cabin. And not because he can handle himself but because of his street smarts. By time we have pushed back he has summed up every potential trouble maker and ally.