USN The Slow Death Of The Carrier Air Wing - Or a CSAR Threadjack

[Matty Morocco]

Let's be honest, given where we've operated in the past 30 years (and where we will likely operate in the future), CSAR for CVW assets isn't coming from the CSG. It's mostly coming from USAF, USMC and Army air assets operating from forward bases. Unless the CVW is executing extremely short range strike warfare, the time/distance problem makes organic CSAR an impossibility.

Does the CMV-22 have the possibility of solving that time/distance problem? It has the range to operate close to strike jet targets, and stay on station for some time. For example, the Navy website FactFile has the F/A-18E/F combat range listed as 1,275 nautical miles, which seems to be without external fuel tank or refuel. The FactFile has the CV-22B range listed as 2,100 nautical miles with internal auxiliary fuel tanks. The Osprey can operate from deck of a carrier, and there looks to be some possibility that it will be landing on small boys in the near future. Is it unreasonable for a CVW to maintain a dedicated strike rescue detachment specifically for the flexibility it provides, without having to rely on the AF to retrieve stranded assets? I have absolutely zero naval experience so this is all academic to me.

EDIT: Found a little graphic from a GAO Defense Acquisition paper on the V-22 showing range compared to the now-retired Sea Knight.

 

[Brett327]

You're making assumptions on real world operations based on internet factoids. Listed platform combat range is largely irrelevant, as TACAIR platforms are constantly getting refueled airborne. Strikes today in Syria are occurring over 1000 miles from the ship, which is why there are dedicated PR/CSAR assets in multiple locations in theater - closer to the action, if you will. There's just no way to get a slow moving platform like RW or the Osprey from the ship into the AOR with the required PR response times. If you were a downed pilot, would you rather be picked up in 15 minutes, or wait 6 hours? Pretty simple.

So, to answer your question, no. The CMV-22 does not change that for today's operating environment.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Then Sea of Japan / Yankee Station (Korea and Vietnam) CSAR type operations are likely never to be seen again. USAF is the king of rotary wing Comabt SAR - they have thge forward deployed capability and mindset / cutlure as well as tgeh technical capability to foprward depoloy to the edge of the indian territory, then inflight refuel to whereever they need to to go grab our guys. They did it in Desert Storm, OEF, OIF, Balkans, etc. And they went after Joint before it was cool to wear Purple.

In the 90's and early 2000's - what did you see on CV or ARG when world affairs dictated the capability was needed? You saw a AFSOC MH-53 Pave Low appear out of nowhere and organically det on LHD, CVN, LPD, etc....

Despite so many well authored articles in Proceedings, Rotor Review, etc - well meaning JO's wanting in on the mission since the 1980's.

Navy helo community missed the opportunity with Eagle Claw, and again in operations like Praying Mantis. Largely because we had pussies for leaders that were products of the 1970's Navy Sadly.

I wanted nothing more as a JO to cross the beach, be the calvery, bring home a good guy to his family and have an Air Medal I could talk about to grandkids. But instead I can tell stories of engine failures at night while slinging pallets of high priority copier paper and 7UP

 

[Uncle Fester]

Does the CMV-22 have the possibility of solving that time/distance problem? It has the range to operate close to strike jet targets, and stay on station for some time. For example, the Navy website FactFile has the F/A-18E/F combat range listed as 1,275 nautical miles, which seems to be without external fuel tank or refuel. The FactFile has the CV-22B range listed as 2,100 nautical miles with internal auxiliary fuel tanks. The Osprey can operate from deck of a carrier, and there looks to be some possibility that it will be landing on small boys in the near future. Is it unreasonable for a CVW to maintain a dedicated strike rescue detachment specifically for the flexibility it provides, without having to rely on the AF to retrieve stranded assets? I have absolutely zero naval experience so this is all academic to me.

There is no way in hell that VRC would want to eat that big a change to their ROC/POE without the $$$ to man, equip, train to it - which they're not going to get. And in any case, the CODsprey isn't going to be missionized for CSAR in any way.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Then Sea of Japan / Yankee Station (Korea and Vietnam) CSAR type operations are likely never to be seen again. USAF is the king of rotary wing Comabt SAR - they have thge forward deployed capability and mindset / cutlure as well as tgeh technical capability to foprward depoloy to the edge of the indian territory, then inflight refuel to whereever they need to to go grab our guys. They did it in Desert Storm, OEF, OIF, Balkans, etc. And they went after Joint before it was cool to wear Purple.

In the 90's and early 2000's - what did you see on CV or ARG when world affairs dictated the capability was needed? You saw a AFSOC MH-53 Pave Low appear out of nowhere and organically det on LHD, CVN, LPD, etc....

Despite so many well authored articles in Proceedings, Rotor Review, etc - well meaning JO's wanting in on the mission since the 1980's.

Navy helo community missed the opportunity with Eagle Claw, and again in operations like Praying Mantis. Largely because we had pussies for leaders that were products of the 1970's Navy Sadly.

I wanted nothing more as a JO to cross the beach, be the calvery, bring home a good guy to his family and have an Air Medal I could talk about to grandkids. But instead I can tell stories of engine failures at night while slinging pallets of high priority copier paper and 7UP

All of the following came from the USMC / USN team aboard the MEU / ARG.

Operation Eastern Exit, 1991 - CH-53E's in flight refueling to evacuate the embassy in Mogadishu

Operation Noble Obelisk, 1997 - evacuate Sierra Leone

Scott O'Grady rescue mission of 1995 - they even made (loosely) a horrible movie about it called "Behind Enemy Lines"

Before the V-22, only the CH-53E's had the range, in flight refueling and payload capacity to carry a TRAP team. H-60's (and H-46's for that matter) just did not have the capability. With the arrival of the V-22's, long range personnel recovery has more options today.

 

[nittany03]

All of the following came from the USMC / USN team aboard the MEU / ARG.

Operation Eastern Exit, 1991 - CH-53E's in flight refueling to evacuate the embassy in Mogadishu

Operation Noble Obelisk, 1997 - evacuate Sierra Leone

Scott O'Grady rescue mission of 1995 - they even made (loosely) a horrible movie about it called "Behind Enemy Lines"

Before the V-22, only the CH-53E's had the range, in flight refueling and payload capacity to carry a TRAP team. H-60's (and H-46's for that matter) just did not have the capability. With the arrival of the V-22's, long range personnel recovery has more options today.

USMC TRAP != CVW CSAR.

 

[RadicalDude]

The RMC syllabus is the bastard stepchild of airing training, as it is.

Didn't seem like a mission folks were overly concerned with the airing performing well, in my limited experience.

@Brett327 , it sounds like PR architecture has gotten significantly better in the AOR since I was there. Our briefed options were... well lets just say 6 hrs would have been great.

 

[nittany03]

they even made (loosely) a horrible movie about it called "Behind Enemy Lines"

You're just jealous that the hero was an NFO.

 

[robav8r]

You're just jealous that the hero was an NFO.

It was on yesterday on the National Geographic channel. And yes, I watched it

 

[ChuckMK23]

and then there's this...

Navy Turns to Tern to Make Every Ship an Aircraft Carrier
https://www.afcea.org/content/navy-turns-tern-make-every-ship-aircraft-carrier?sthash.TAOu0LGP.mjjo

Northrop Grumman and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) are developing and building the Tern demonstrator aircraft. DARPA

The Tactically Exploited Reconnaissance Node, aka Tern, is an unmanned aerial system (UAS) that can launch and land vertically. Photo illustration by DARPA

Tern’s defining characteristic is its ability to land and take off vertically, like a helicopter from the deck of a Navy warship. Once the UAS is safely away from the ship, it transitions to horizontal flight and operates like a conventional fixed-wing aircraft. Photo illustration by Northrop Grumman

 

[RadicalDude]

and then there's this...

• 
  
  Northrop Grumman and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) are developing and building the Tern demonstrator aircraft. DARPA
• 
  
  The Tactically Exploited Reconnaissance Node, aka Tern, is an unmanned aerial system (UAS) that can launch and land vertically. Photo illustration by DARPA
• 
  
  Tern’s defining characteristic is its ability to land and take off vertically, like a helicopter from the deck of a Navy warship. Once the UAS is safely away from the ship, it transitions to horizontal flight and operates like a conventional fixed-wing aircraft. Photo illustration by Northrop Grumman
• 
  
  Northrop Grumman and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) are developing and building the Tern demonstrator aircraft. DARPA
• 
  
  The Tactically Exploited Reconnaissance Node, aka Tern, is an unmanned aerial system (UAS) that can launch and land vertically. Photo illustration by DARPA

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   Navy Turns to Tern to Make Every Ship an Aircraft Carrier

https://www.afcea.org/content/navy-turns-tern-make-every-ship-aircraft-carrier?sthash.TAOu0LGP.mjjo

That thing is U-G-L-Y UGLY.

 

[SynixMan]

While HSC isn’t a viable option given most of the problems we face today, there’s nothing saying they can’t be in some future drive by strike. If it had been a CVN parked off Lybia in 2012 vice a MEU, I have no doubt they would’ve made it happen.

I think if push came to shove and LT Timmy from VFA-whatever was hanging in the silk over some new -Stan, he wouldn’t care where the help came from. HSC is sure as shit better than waiting however long it would take to put other assets in place, and that’s the point of organic CSAR.

 

[jmcquate]

Huh...........a robot Pogo.

 

[RadicalDude]

While HSC isn’t a viable option given most of the problems we face today, there’s nothing saying they can’t be in some future drive by strike. If it had been a CVN parked off Lybia in 2012 vice a MEU, I have no doubt they would’ve made it happen.

I think if push came to shove and LT Timmy from VFA-whatever was hanging in the silk over some new -Stan, he wouldn’t care where the help came from. HSC is sure as shit better than waiting however long it would take to put other assets in place, and that’s the point of organic CSAR.

I agree with you. The HSC dudes I worked with seemed serious about the mission, and we learned a lot from them. It just didn't seem like something the leadership took very seriously, which is unfortunate but not surprising given the pure number of missions the CVW is responsible for these days.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Of course the Navy is missing the AF equivalent of PJ’s....