The Doctor is in! Ask a Flight Surgeon!

[FinkUFreaky]

Thanks for the advice. I wasn't trying to sound conceited and boast by calling myself an "elite athlete" (definitely should have phrased that better), but I was just repeating what was said by my physician in his notes. Lesson learned. Also, was 99% sure you were being sarcastic, but wasn't positive haha. I checked the NAMI waiver guide originally before posting, but I couldn't find anything specifically related to heart murmurs or sinus arrhythmia, which is why I decided to go ahead and ask. I appreciate you and everyone else taking the time to help, really means a lot, and I'm confident that these issues will eventually be resolved. Thanks again!

Haha, gotta have a good attitude overall AND be able to take some ribbing in this business and seems like you do. And if you liking my earlier post was acknowledging the sarcasm, then you're in a good spot to fit in. As said by @exNavyOffRec , do what's best for you with intentions to join and become an Aviator, and let the cards fall where they will. You'll be in a good spot regardless. Best of luck!

Edit: There definitely is some stuff in there regarding heart murmurs I thought.... Not 100% sure though and don't plan on checking myself . Not sure on Sinus arrhythmia. But if it isn't in the waiver guide, then no worries, you don't need a waiver! Which means if you pass MEPS then good to go. I'm not a fan of NAMI but understand why they are necessary. If you need a waiver, they will be by the book regardless of the circumstances.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Haha, gotta have a good attitude overall AND be able to take some ribbing in this business and seems like you do. And if you liking my earlier post was acknowledging the sarcasm, then you're in a good spot to fit in. As said by @exNavyOffRec , do what's best for you with intentions to join and become an Aviator, and let the cards fall where they will. You'll be in a good spot regardless. Best of luck!

Edit: There definitely is some stuff in there regarding heart murmurs I thought.... Not 100% sure though and don't plan on checking myself . Not sure on Sinus arrhythmia. But if it isn't in the waiver guide, then no worries, you don't need a waiver! Which means if you pass MEPS then good to go. I'm not a fan of NAMI but understand why they are necessary. If you need a waiver, they will be by the book regardless of the circumstances.

The medical manual NRC uses is often a bit stricter than NAMI, or maybe the NRC docs are just more strict, if a person can get through those guys often they will be ok, unless an applicant was doctor shopping to get a favorable opinion and NAMI catches it.

 

[FinkUFreaky]

The medical manual NRC uses is often a bit stricter than NAMI, or maybe the NRC docs are just more strict, if a person can get through those guys often they will be ok, unless an applicant was doctor shopping to get a favorable opinion and NAMI catches it.

I'd guess if anything that maybe some things aren't in the NAMI waiver guide because they'd be DQ for serving in the Navy at all. IE, I don't think "having a pulse is required" is waiver-able by NAMI. You wouldn't get through MEPS without a pulse. Or being able to duckwalk, or whatever other weird shit. It's been a decade and a half or so lol. But to your point, there are certainly things that may not be in the NAMI guide that would preclude joining in any specialty.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I'd guess if anything that maybe some things aren't in the NAMI waiver guide because they'd be DQ for serving in the Navy at all. IE, I don't think "having a pulse is required" is waiver-able by NAMI. You wouldn't get through MEPS without a pulse. Or being able to duckwalk, or whatever other weird shit. It's been a decade and a half or so lol. But to your point, there are certainly things that may not be in the NAMI guide that would preclude joining in any specialty.

It is interesting for officer applicants, MEPS gives the physical and then all the data is sent to N3M (or whatever they have changed the name to this year) and they will give a thumbs up or down, for aviation they will always put "N3M defers to NAMI for suitability in aviation programs", which basically means even though we will let you be an officer in the USN NAMI could crush your dreams of flying later.

 

[Brett327]

It is interesting for officer applicants, MEPS gives the physical and then all the data is sent to N3M (or whatever they have changed the name to this year) and they will give a thumbs up or down, for aviation they will always put "N3M defers to NAMI for suitability in aviation programs", which basically means even though we will let you be an officer in the USN NAMI could crush your dreams of flying later.

Would be interesting to see (or hear your experiences on) things that N3M would reject, but NAMI would at least consider a waiver on.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Would be interesting to see (or hear your experiences on) things that N3M would reject, but NAMI would at least consider a waiver on.

usually it is the other way around, N3M would approve asthma waivers and NAMI would later reject, or hardware, ortho surgeries, depth perception, back injuries, etc....

The ones I say people get continually shot down by NAMI on were vision worse than 20/40 and depth perception and nearly in each case the person doctor shopped until they were under 20/40 or passed depth perception, that was one of the reasons for quite a while N3M would only accept vision exams from MEPS or MEPS approved eye docs.

 

[mutanttrout100]

Haha, gotta have a good attitude overall AND be able to take some ribbing in this business and seems like you do. And if you liking my earlier post was acknowledging the sarcasm, then you're in a good spot to fit in. As said by @exNavyOffRec , do what's best for you with intentions to join and become an Aviator, and let the cards fall where they will. You'll be in a good spot regardless. Best of luck!

Edit: There definitely is some stuff in there regarding heart murmurs I thought.... Not 100% sure though and don't plan on checking myself . Not sure on Sinus arrhythmia. But if it isn't in the waiver guide, then no worries, you don't need a waiver! Which means if you pass MEPS then good to go. I'm not a fan of NAMI but understand why they are necessary. If you need a waiver, they will be by the book regardless of the circumstances.

I just rechecked the waiver guide, and the only thing I could find related to heart murmurs were atrial septal defects (hole in the heart), which I don't believe I have. Anyway, good to hear that things not in the waiver guide may not require waivers!

 

[Brett327]

 

[TimeBomb]

Would be interesting to see (or hear your experiences on) things that N3M would reject, but NAMI would at least consider a waiver on.

This scenario should be highly unusual. MANMED is the instruction from higher authority, so a more lenient policy from a subordinate command would be flagged pretty early on. That said, medical is subordinate to the line, and as such, only recommends actions. The line could grant a waiver for their own reasons, which may account for the observation. I've personally seen that a couple of times when flag officers got involved as personal favors.

The Waiver Guide doesn't address murmurs, as the murmur is the simply the reflection of some underlying process. The echo helps define the underlying structure causing the murmur, and the guide addresses the conditions individually (mitral regurgitation, aortic stenosis, etc.) and the process for requesting a waiver.

V/R

 

[exNavyOffRec]

This scenario should be highly unusual. MANMED is the instruction from higher authority, so a more lenient policy from a subordinate command would be flagged pretty early on. That said, medical is subordinate to the line, and as such, only recommends actions. The line could grant a waiver for their own reasons, which may account for the observation. I've personally seen that a couple of times when flag officers got involved as personal favors.

The Waiver Guide doesn't address murmurs, as the murmur is the simply the reflection of some underlying process. The echo helps define the underlying structure causing the murmur, and the guide addresses the conditions individually (mitral regurgitation, aortic stenosis, etc.) and the process for requesting a waiver.

V/R

I have seen 2? instances where the line was involved, one was a SEAL candidate who had gone through all the physical testing and really he should have been cleared as the hang up was family counseling due to a divorce. The other was a nuke who's vision was outside the pre op limits, he had tried for aviation and they shot him down on the vision thing but the nukes said no problem, and I think there was a third but can't remember if that was one that it took lots of documents to get cleared via N3M or the line was involved, but it seems the line is only involved in specific difficult designators like SEAL, Nuke, Chaplains, specialty docs, etc.....

 

[StJP4Us]

To preface this I want to say my dad was an AF officer and I was treated at military/TRICARE hospitals my whole life. This means I had to submit every single medical record in my life (about 300 pages). I just finished MEPS (was a battle to even get there, 9 months of back and forth, requests for additional information, the whole 9 yards) and my SG waiver just got denied for asthma, peanut allergies, and dry eye syndrome and I don't know why (there was no info on why it was denied). After I finished MEPS, the SG requested 2 more tests from me and said that I may meet waiver criteria pending successful completion of the tests. These 2 tests were a pre-post bronchodilator spirometry, and an allergy test to confirm no peanut allergy. I passed them both with no problem, does anyone know why there would be a denial? Here is a little more info about me:

Asthma - Was diagnosed as a kid but all symptoms subside at age 12 and never resurface. This is documented in my medical records. The issue is inhalers were prescribed to me as a precaution until I was about 21. The kicker here is my medical documents state that it was my mom who ordered them. My medical file literally states "language barrier between patient and mother, mother won't let patient speak". I never needed these inhalers but my mom insisted to the doctor that I have them for emergencies. It is noted in my file that after age 12, "never uses, keeps 1 in case of emergency".

The SG also requested a methacholine challenge test from me prior to letting me take my physical at MEPS. I took that and passed with flying colors. I took another one 2 years ago for my own knowledge to make sure I didn't have asthma. Passed that one with flying colors too, all these tests were sent to the SG.

Peanut Allergy - I had peanuts when I was 3 years old and my mom thought I looked funny and took me to the ER. Demanded an epi-pen. Never was used. Literally ate peanuts since I was 6 with no problem. Just took a allergy test and oral food challenge test to prove I'm not allergic, passed with flying colors.

Dry Eyes - I had PRK about 6 years ago and went to the doctors office 6 months after the surgery to get a refill on eye drops. I guess this was coded as dry eye syndrome so I could get the eye drops. This is normal after PRK too, it's not like I'm requesting them 5 years after my surgery complaining about dry eyes.

I guess I am lost at this point. Why would the SG deny me if I've passed everything and meet all the criteria? Am I missing something? I'm going to meet with a flight surgeon to go over my packet and resubmit everything in a neat tidy document so it can carry more weight. I just don't want this to be the end of the road for me. Any insight is appreciated!

 

[taxi1]

This means I had to submit every single medical record in my life

No advice for you, just noting that last century I didn't show up with any records. Probably would have never gotten in if I had.

You have my sympathy for a process gone wild.

 

[Ghost SWO]

To preface this I want to say my dad was an AF officer and I was treated at military/TRICARE hospitals my whole life. This means I had to submit every single medical record in my life (about 300 pages). I just finished MEPS (was a battle to even get there, 9 months of back and forth, requests for additional information, the whole 9 yards) and my SG waiver just got denied for asthma, peanut allergies, and dry eye syndrome and I don't know why (there was no info on why it was denied). After I finished MEPS, the SG requested 2 more tests from me and said that I may meet waiver criteria pending successful completion of the tests. These 2 tests were a pre-post bronchodilator spirometry, and an allergy test to confirm no peanut allergy. I passed them both with no problem, does anyone know why there would be a denial? Here is a little more info about me:

Asthma - Was diagnosed as a kid but all symptoms subside at age 12 and never resurface. This is documented in my medical records. The issue is inhalers were prescribed to me as a precaution until I was about 21. The kicker here is my medical documents state that it was my mom who ordered them. My medical file literally states "language barrier between patient and mother, mother won't let patient speak". I never needed these inhalers but my mom insisted to the doctor that I have them for emergencies. It is noted in my file that after age 12, "never uses, keeps 1 in case of emergency".

The SG also requested a methacholine challenge test from me prior to letting me take my physical at MEPS. I took that and passed with flying colors. I took another one 2 years ago for my own knowledge to make sure I didn't have asthma. Passed that one with flying colors too, all these tests were sent to the SG.

Peanut Allergy - I had peanuts when I was 3 years old and my mom thought I looked funny and took me to the ER. Demanded an epi-pen. Never was used. Literally ate peanuts since I was 6 with no problem. Just took a allergy test and oral food challenge test to prove I'm not allergic, passed with flying colors.

Dry Eyes - I had PRK about 6 years ago and went to the doctors office 6 months after the surgery to get a refill on eye drops. I guess this was coded as dry eye syndrome so I could get the eye drops. This is normal after PRK too, it's not like I'm requesting them 5 years after my surgery complaining about dry eyes.

I guess I am lost at this point. Why would the SG deny me if I've passed everything and meet all the criteria? Am I missing something? I'm going to meet with a flight surgeon to go over my packet and resubmit everything in a neat tidy document so it can carry more weight. I just don't want this to be the end of the road for me. Any insight is appreciated!

I was a military dependent my whole life too and had a huge medical history for my MEPS visit. I also had an nearly identical (childhood) asthma history. I think what helps is medical documentation that clearly states that you do NOT have something anymore. A doctor's note saying that you do not use the medication isn't enough, you need follow-up visits that state something to the contrary. You can have a plethysmography done to clinically prove the lack of asthma, and I'd imagine you need similar doctor's notes and follow-up visits for the other things.

 

[StJP4Us]

I was a military dependent my whole life too and had a huge medical history for my MEPS visit. I also had an nearly identical (childhood) asthma history. I think what helps is medical documentation that clearly states that you do NOT have something anymore. A doctor's note saying that you do not use the medication isn't enough, you need follow-up visits that state something to the contrary. You can have a plethysmography done to clinically prove the lack of asthma, and I'd imagine you need similar doctor's notes and follow-up visits for the other things.

I'm confused though, I have the tests that prove I don't suffer with the condition or have it anymore. How much more can you do than eat peanuts in front of someone and the doctor writes off on it? And I can't believe the hold up is with MEPS/SG. I don't want to be denied at this level. I want to be denied at the NAMI level if I have to get denied.

 

[Ghost SWO]

I'm confused though, I have the tests that prove I don't suffer with the condition or have it anymore. How much more can you do than eat peanuts in front of someone and the doctor writes off on it? And I can't believe the hold up is with MEPS/SG. I don't want to be denied at this level. I want to be denied at the NAMI level if I have to get denied.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what I glean from what you said is that you did the Spirometry and the allergy test post-MEPS? You also did not provide MEPS with medical documentation stating you don't have dry eyes? You have to look at it from their perspective, they evaluate you based on what they see in front of them medically speaking, so according to their records that you provided; You had asthma, a peanut allergy, and dry eyes at the time of evaluation.

I would bet if the information they wanted was provided to them along with your medical history before you went in for your MEPS appt, this would be a different story. I did not require any waiver for asthma, but my spirometry was done in 2005 so there was a long history of not having asthma before my enlistment in 2015. MEPS should have requested a doctors note if you claim to not have an issue with prior diagnoses, but if you never stated they were no longer issues they wouldn't even know to dig further.

I would recommend doctors notes being very specific now, stating something like, "patient has been asymptomatic for XYZ since 2010" etc...