Maybe, maybe not. From talking with them as they came through VTs, some were obviously “connected” and some weren’t. Something tells me that will be the deciding factor more than anything.
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Saudi Students To Be Expelled
- Thread starter Sam I am
- Start date
Maybe, maybe not. From talking with them as they came through VTs, some were obviously “connected” and some weren’t. Something tells me that will be the deciding factor more than anything.
I had my fill of Saudi students as both a SNA and IP. When I finally winged, my first flight was Solo Observer and the student was Saudi. Holy $h!t, that was an eye opener.
As a newly minted IP I downed a Saudi student in the brief (first ready room down handed out) and when talking to OPS afterward to shuffle in a new SNA to my flight the only comment made was downing the Saudi really didn't matter...as in not at all...since they would never be attrited. I never downed another after that since all it really accomplished was forcing another IP to sit through the same brief.
To be fair, I had some really good Saudi students when I was an IP, AND we had a Saudi IP (perhaps Kuwait...I can't recall...Jim123, do you remember?). He was a good IP.
As a newly minted IP I downed a Saudi student in the brief (first ready room down handed out) and when talking to OPS afterward to shuffle in a new SNA to my flight the only comment made was downing the Saudi really didn't matter...as in not at all...since they would never be attrited. I never downed another after that since all it really accomplished was forcing another IP to sit through the same brief.
To be fair, I had some really good Saudi students when I was an IP, AND we had a Saudi IP (perhaps Kuwait...I can't recall...Jim123, do you remember?). He was a good IP.
I can't remember many of their IPs firsthand.
For their students, if they can overcome the language barrier (not as easy as it sounds) and they work hard, then it's possible to get good results. We had a Saudi finish primary with just over a 50 NSS a couple years ago or so. When he was about halfway through that, I remember him telling me he was trying to set the record for Saudi students. He flew pretty well and I graded him just like I would any other student- as in no inflation but credit where credit was due. But when they're bad at flying, they're really bad.
Their training is bought and paid for, foreign military sales, so I never lost any sleep nor gained blood pressure over the attrition policy. With U.S. students and most allies, it's a question of meeting the standard within certain time and resources. If somebody's government wishes to allocate more time and money then that's not my business; that's how I see it.
With some of the weaker students who showed extra motivation, I did go out of my way to help them more. I figured that was sort of a long term investment or cultural exchange or whatever... that guy who is struggling right now is going to remember the extra help and years from now- and tell his friends that Americans are good people. Maybe that's just a drop in the proverbial bucket, but whatever your opinion about their society and its problems, we do have to share the planet with them.
At least that's how I used to think about it. This kid who shot up API and killed my brothers-in-arms, along with his complicit "dinner and a movie party" friends, that's got me thinking hard about all this.
For their students, if they can overcome the language barrier (not as easy as it sounds) and they work hard, then it's possible to get good results. We had a Saudi finish primary with just over a 50 NSS a couple years ago or so. When he was about halfway through that, I remember him telling me he was trying to set the record for Saudi students. He flew pretty well and I graded him just like I would any other student- as in no inflation but credit where credit was due. But when they're bad at flying, they're really bad.
Their training is bought and paid for, foreign military sales, so I never lost any sleep nor gained blood pressure over the attrition policy. With U.S. students and most allies, it's a question of meeting the standard within certain time and resources. If somebody's government wishes to allocate more time and money then that's not my business; that's how I see it.
With some of the weaker students who showed extra motivation, I did go out of my way to help them more. I figured that was sort of a long term investment or cultural exchange or whatever... that guy who is struggling right now is going to remember the extra help and years from now- and tell his friends that Americans are good people. Maybe that's just a drop in the proverbial bucket, but whatever your opinion about their society and its problems, we do have to share the planet with them.
At least that's how I used to think about it. This kid who shot up API and killed my brothers-in-arms, along with his complicit "dinner and a movie party" friends, that's got me thinking hard about all this.
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Good points, Jim, and I would echo many of them. To be clear on the attrition policy, I didn't have any heartburn over it for the same reasons you stated. They bought a package deal and what value they received out of it was up to the student. I gave the same instruction regardless of who was sitting in the right seat. That being said, I loved flying with the Italians! That was almost always an easy day unless you had a hot shot...then you had to pay attention.
Shooting up our base and murdering our Brothers leads me to hope they kick them all out. But I'll temper that sentiment by pointing out that some of own troops have committed some really ugly crimes while being stationed abroad and we're still there.
All that being said, purging the bad apples and allowing the righteous to remain may be reasonable.
Shooting up our base and murdering our Brothers leads me to hope they kick them all out. But I'll temper that sentiment by pointing out that some of own troops have committed some really ugly crimes while being stationed abroad and we're still there.
All that being said, purging the bad apples and allowing the righteous to remain may be reasonable.
Lest we forget, the Okinawans have a bone to pick with Americans after someone raped a kid, amongst other crimes. There are bad actors everywhere. I think we need to keep in mind that we're talking about maybe 10-20 out of 850-odd people INCONUS under this program.
I'm glad you brought this up, because some people need to hear that perspective. I suspect that some who would advocate for expelling the entire group of Saudis are also those who tend to complain the loudest when drinking/liberty restrictions are imposed on everyone when one person does something terrible in Japan.
I think the bringing up the comparison to Japan is fair but not quite parallel in some ways that I think make a difference. I'd argue that I think it's a relevant distinction that the Saudi committed what we are calling an intentional act of terrorism. As a representative of his country and their military, he committed an act of terrorism against the United States. He didn't "just" act criminally against an American national. He acted against the America government while here on official business.
I'm not sure I agree with expelling all of them (actually, I probably side against doing so), but I don't think the comparison it quite perfect, either.
I'm not sure I agree with expelling all of them (actually, I probably side against doing so), but I don't think the comparison it quite perfect, either.
I dunno, do the parents and extended family of the brutally raped Japanese teen really see it any differently? They very likely see that as an assault on their country/culture/island. The analogy isn't perfect, but it'll do for the purposes of this conversation, in that there's tendency by some to not see the parallels when the shoe is on the other foot.
Historically that's been the case, but with the current RSNF helo case (which is different then case that was used to pay for the studs you, Sam, and I flew with), there's a fixed dollar amount (at least as of Dec 19). So if students (either enlisted or officer) end up taking longer, it can affect the overall throughput. Because there are two cases currently, I'm sure RSNF can manipulate the numbers for those going through Whiting, but that second more recent case's fixed expense is in play when they're going through the FRS.
More money was supposed to be coming, so it will be interesting to see when/if that happens (I'm sure it will for case sustainment, at a minimum).
For the Marine that raped a teenager and Saudis that helped execute a terrorist attack in our soil, I’d call hanging both an equally satisfactory punishment...
Kendrick Ledet, the guy who raped the 12 year-old in Okinawa back in the 90’s, served seven years in a Japanese prison but then raped and killed another woman in Georgia and then killed himself. Kenneth Shinzato, the most recent case, got life in a Japanese cell. Good riddance to bad trash.
Not sure about jets, but I hear the percentage of those convicted in a Saudi court get beheaded...about 42% of the time!
Hear, hear.