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Romeos Vs. Sierras

SynixMan

Staff Life
pilot
Contributor
MEDEVAC would give you a little related insight into the PR/SOF MEDEVAC/CASEVAC roles. The other branches don't do business the way we do (units tend to be specialized since they sort of have that luxury) so it would be difficult to get the 'all-encompassing' exchange tour but getting a slice of the pie will give you a pretty good idea of how the rest of it tastes.
So, like, screw all the guys from the 2515th? I guess 6ish years of no shit CASEVAC don't count?

I still, after reading a lot of your posts, have no idea what you want. Everyone cannot do a tour with the 160th, HMLA, Army MEDEVAC, USAF Pararescue, Navy SWTI, then come back to teach the nuggets "how it's done".
 

lowflier03

So no $hit there I was
pilot
The 160th to fly the Army DAP 60s? Or maybe do some MEDEVAC with the normal Army 60 guys or fly little birds? Just a thought. Exchange tours aren't a bad thing. Maybe we could send our WTIs before or after they get their patch.
WTF are you talking about? The first WTI's to deal with the M-197 worked and flew with the 160th to develop the Navy's tactics for how to employ it. We also had the 2515th which over the time it was active was supported by 3 different squadrons, and never lost a patient. We had HS-14 and HS-10 conduct the EMIO detachment.

As for doing full exchange tours, I know of 1 guy who tried out for the 160th and got accepted, but PERS refused to let him do it. There is no appetite within the detailing office to send front runners out of the community considering how little time they give us in the cockpit in the first place. With that being said, there are guys in the community, and even on AW who have flown actual ops with SOF teams. I don't know what more you want, and I don't think you know what experience actually lies in the community.

In the end I think the real problem is that we merged HS and HSC without having an idea of how the process would actually play out and what the future of the community would look like. Too many stars stuck with the initial plan just because it was the plan, instead of asking questions or looking ahead. (Trust me, I've read the reports from the initial concept of the "helo master plan" through it actually playing out, and every report and survey actually said it was a bad idea and shouldn't be done.)

All the "tactical" HS guys decided to stay in their airframe as long as possible due to the early growing pains with the MH-60S and just assumed that when they did finally transition, they would all be golden children and the community would run the way they wanted it to. Unfortunately by the time enough guys actually swapped over, too many bad habits and ideas had become entrenched and now the combined community lacks direction. It also doesn't help that we have expeditionary HSC squadrons who can't find any work for their dets, so entire generations of some wardrooms go without a deployment for their tour, have no idea how the CVN or the rest of the Navy operates, and can't get any quals due to not having any flight time.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
I don't fault [most of] the jo's that are WTI's because 99% really do try to make a good product. My problem with the community as a whole is the decision to put guys in NSAWC with zero, literally no deployments as a JO. Again, I'm not faulting the JO level because the JOs are essentially just doing what they're told to do. The bigger problem is that it's hard to have overall legitimacy when you have the very definition of a NSAWC water-walker that has literally zero deployment experience and is now responsible for not just teaching tactics but actually creating and updating tactics.


The Marines send one guy to the 160th and the 160th sends one guy to Yuma. It's usually a Cobra, maybe a Huey guy. I would highly doubt that the 160th would be happy to do an exchange with a Navy unit, but I have been wrong before.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
Green time is not a prerequisite to being a tactical expert. None of the aviators in the fleet on 6DEC41 had any green time but they still developed the doctrine and tactics that were trained to in order to counter the expected threat.
Green time also isn't an effective indicator of someone actually being a tactical guru either.

That said, if folks who do actually have said experience I think it'd be a good idea to recruit them into the tactics guru roles.
 

SynixMan

Staff Life
pilot
Contributor
I'm still surprised we can't work a NSAWC/160th exchange. I think that would be a great idea.
 

lowflier03

So no $hit there I was
pilot
I'm still surprised we can't work a NSAWC/160th exchange. I think that would be a great idea.
Unfortunately the length of tour becomes an issue. 160th wants their pilots for a minimum of 4 years iirc because thats how long it takes to get them qualed to the point of being useful. PERS isn't going to let a JO go on a "shore" tour for that length of time. Plus 160th is busy trying to qual enough pilots to fill their own needs; throwing in a low hour (relative to a warrant) navy guy just to have him for 2.5-3 years isn't worth it from their perspective. And what is a 160th guy going to learn from the Navy? That we have a helo with the potential of a DAP but can't use it as such.
 

jtmedli

Well-Known Member
pilot
WTF are you talking about? The first WTI's to deal with the M-197 worked and flew with the 160th to develop the Navy's tactics for how to employ it. We also had the 2515th which over the time it was active was supported by 3 different squadrons, and never lost a patient. We had HS-14 and HS-10 conduct the EMIO detachment.

As for doing full exchange tours, I know of 1 guy who tried out for the 160th and got accepted, but PERS refused to let him do it. There is no appetite within the detailing office to send front runners out of the community considering how little time they give us in the cockpit in the first place. With that being said, there are guys in the community, and even on AW who have flown actual ops with SOF teams. I don't know what more you want, and I don't think you know what experience actually lies in the community.

In the end I think the real problem is that we merged HS and HSC without having an idea of how the process would actually play out and what the future of the community would look like. Too many stars stuck with the initial plan just because it was the plan, instead of asking questions or looking ahead. (Trust me, I've read the reports from the initial concept of the "helo master plan" through it actually playing out, and every report and survey actually said it was a bad idea and shouldn't be done.)

All the "tactical" HS guys decided to stay in their airframe as long as possible due to the early growing pains with the MH-60S and just assumed that when they did finally transition, they would all be golden children and the community would run the way they wanted it to. Unfortunately by the time enough guys actually swapped over, too many bad habits and ideas had become entrenched and now the combined community lacks direction. It also doesn't help that we have expeditionary HSC squadrons who can't find any work for their dets, so entire generations of some wardrooms go without a deployment for their tour, have no idea how the CVN or the rest of the Navy operates, and can't get any quals due to not having any flight time.
I think you answered your own question. Insanebikerboys post pretty much reinforces what I was getting at.

Furthermore, this isn't a tactics/WTI bashing. It's a lack of direction in the HSC community bashing and that vision/direction is, in other words, "what exactly do you do here?" Which is a question that will get you 10 different answers on the sea wall. A WTI would tell you we're here to insert SEALS and shoot hellfires. The average fleet JO, if they were honest, would say SAR and vertrep because that's about the only thing most of them will ever do on a deployment or for the entire time they're in the navy. My point with the WTI thing is that they're pushing a "vision/direction" out to the community extremely hard that a lot of us, again if we were being honest, don't bite off on for the reasons I mentioned earlier. That leads to us being in a community that is being pulled in both directions. On one side we have JOs who've never flown anything other than the starboard D pushing us to be super tactical and on the other we have an FRS that doesn't even know what the SWTP even is. Much less play along with it. Hence the confusion and lack of direction.
 

jtmedli

Well-Known Member
pilot
So, like, screw all the guys from the 2515th? I guess 6ish years of no shit CASEVAC don't count?

I still, after reading a lot of your posts, have no idea what you want. Everyone cannot do a tour with the 160th, HMLA, Army MEDEVAC, USAF Pararescue, Navy SWTI, then come back to teach the nuggets "how it's done".
I'm not saying everyone should do that. But like insanebikerboy said, guys who did a vertrep Det and then got picked up for NSAWC do not an overnight tactics expert make. And if we have people with experience then they should be heavily recruited into those positions. The ones without it should be given the opportunities to get it. Golden path be damned.
 

Hotdogs

Leeroy Jenkins
pilot
MEDEVAC would give you a little related insight into the PR/SOF MEDEVAC/CASEVAC roles. The other branches don't do business the way we do (units tend to be specialized since they sort of have that luxury) so it would be difficult to get the 'all-encompassing' exchange tour but getting a slice of the pie will give you a pretty good idea of how the rest of it tastes.
Dude, I've had the opportunity to fly with skid dudes from the late 90s and all phases of OIF/OEF. Some patch wearers and some not, that said, some were awesome and some weren't. Experience counts for something but it is not the be all end all. HMLA dudes are good at what we do because we have the ordnance and dedicate the vast majority of our time punching codes in those arenas. Same with every other community that gets to focus on a specific mission set. Your community seems like it is the jack of all trades but the master of none, and JOs dream of doing the sexy stuff, with the reality that it will probably never happen. Expectation management is huge, most skid dudes dream of getting their panties wet in a OIF 1 initial push situation, but the reality is that we're probably going to end up sitting off of the coast waiting for a high-vis TRAP mission for the foreseeable future.

PEP tours are good gigs but I think your community would probably get more out of sending a det of 60s to an exercise with a full up MAGTF exercise with skids, Harriers, IDF, UAS, and assault support assets. SOF and other dudes come out to play at ITX from time to time, so it wouldn't be unrealistic to integrate other purple assets on a limited basis, as long as there were a benefit for the Corps on the front/backside. It would require a leap of faith and some people to probably stick their necks out, but the exposure and discussion for those involved would be beneficial. In this fiscal environment though, I wouldn't get your hopes up for anything out of the box.
 

wlawr005

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
You know, if I was still a -60 guy...or had gone on to fly -60s, my one true wish would be that the community would quit trying to be what it's not and strive to be perfect at what it is. The Navy could spend half the money and create a community of true experts at maritime and overland SAR. Navy Rescue Swimmers could get the same level of training the Coasties do (nationally certified EMTs), the Navy could create a training program as rigorous as the Advanced SAR school in Oregon, community experts could put their effort into building something that could be a premier national asset (especially in the overland SAR mission set), and everyone could feel like the mission they train for is important and realistic.
 

croakerfish

Well-Known Member
pilot
You know, if I was still a -60 guy...or had gone on to fly -60s, my one true wish would be that the community would quit trying to be what it's not and strive to be perfect at what it is. The Navy could spend half the money and create a community of true experts at maritime and overland SAR. Navy Rescue Swimmers could get the same level of training the Coasties do (nationally certified EMTs), the Navy could create a training program as rigorous as the Advanced SAR school in Oregon, community experts could put their effort into building something that could be a premier national asset (especially in the overland SAR mission set), and everyone could feel like the mission they train for is important and realistic.
B-b-but, what about the kill chain...
 

illinijoe05

Nachos
pilot
You guys do realize that there is one mission set that senior leadership in the navy (CNO, PACFLEET, FFC, C5F, C7F) wants you to be able to do. That mission is AMCM. I think its hilarious that the 60 community wants nothing to do with it, when in all likelihood, after maritime sar and vertrep, it is the a wartime mission one can reasonably expect for you guys to do in the next 10-15 years. Whatever interests your boss should fascinate the shit out of you...
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
You know, if I was still a -60 guy...or had gone on to fly -60s, my one true wish would be that the community would quit trying to be what it's not and strive to be perfect at what it is. The Navy could spend half the money and create a community of true experts at maritime and overland SAR. Navy Rescue Swimmers could get the same level of training the Coasties do (nationally certified EMTs), the Navy could create a training program as rigorous as the Advanced SAR school in Oregon, community experts could put their effort into building something that could be a premier national asset (especially in the overland SAR mission set), and everyone could feel like the mission they train for is important and realistic.
Wlawr - I probably have no chance of changing your opinion, as it appears fairly staked out, but I will poke the bear -

I ask you why spend the cost? - 43 USN / USMC fixed wing mishaps at sea in the last 15 years may make that hard to justify. Note: not all 43 required SAR - e.g. >$2M damage that recovered safely. And from what I have seen and heard anecdotally, when the rescue asset was called, they performed very well - even the most junior aircrew. I guess I don't see the need for additional school - the product as well as the checks on standardization are pretty rigorous. HSC-3 SARMM doesn't mess around. The irony of the SAR argument - who does plane guard for the helos? 14 helo mishaps at sea in the last 15 years that required rescue, but few, if any, had the luxury of having their own plane guard.

Rescue overland is not a doctrinal mission of the Navy. USAF owns inland SAR by doctrine. Yes, we have station SAR - but those are for specific air stations' requirements and not necessarily the neighboring community as a whole.

Additionally - overland rescue is far more complicated and would require significant investment in pilot training for mountain flying as well as specialized training for crewmen (e.g. short haul, rappel).

We also aren't trying to be what we are not - we are doing the mission that we have been directed to do.
 
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