Porkchop shenanigans, allegedy crappy boat food, and the Great BAS Debate of 2020

[DanMa1156]

Do you know what those regulations on food quality are? If it's a regular Navy ship, then it's governed by NAVSUP P-486. Any conversation you have with SUPPO, the FSO, or CO/XO should reference this because that's what they're going to use to smack down your complaints. If you're on a ship where MSC runs the galley like Blue Ridge, then they have a different set of regs but they also have actual cooks who are supposed to actually cook since that's all they are hired to do. There shouldn't be an excuse for bad chow on an MSC ship.

Again, if you're on a normal ship, there are tight regulations on when, how, and why you can use leftovers in order to prevent foodborne illnesses. I'm surprised they do it so often. On small boys, it's usually just a midrats thing, but I'm sure your galley is just as limited (I don't get the feeling you're on a small boy). The thing is that regular Navy ships are beholden to the Navy Standard Core Menu, aka the 21 Day Menu. This gives them limited options on not only what they can cook but also what they can order through the supply system (all food must come from the central supply system) with ends up with shitty food quality all the way around. If it's an MSC ship, then they have fewer excuses, but they're still ordering out of the same central supply system so expect USDA grade D meat and lots of frozen and canned stuff that's been heavily processed.

Sailor, Supplier, Service, and the Navy Standard Core Menu

BY PAUL SMITH, NAVY FOOD SERVICE READINESS OFFICER, NAVAL SUPPLY […]

scnewsltr.dodlive.mil

You can't use the galley to cook stuff you catch. That's a NAVMED regulation for food safety but I can't remember which one exactly. If I recall, it's the same one that governs Doc doing inspections of the food before you do a stores onload.

I am quite familiar with NAVSUP P-486. On my most recent deployment I got in several arguments with our SUPPO about it. I went the route you recommended earlier - the "sampling the mess gradesheet route," and cited specific examples of failures from NAVSUP P-486. I got a nasty phone call: "do you know Skipper sees these?! What am I supposed to do?" "Yes. And admit that you messed up like an officer and fix the problem and tell him it won't happen again?" WRT the 21 day menu, frustratingly, you can have the same meals every 7 days and state: "well yeah, multiply that by 3 and you have 21 days." Outside of a few changes in dinner, every meal was the exact same thing each day of the week i.e.: fake Italian (reheated Stouffer's) mondays, taco Tuesday, frozen burger Wednesdays, fake Asian Thursdays (mixing spaghetti with ground beef along with some peppers and onions and calling it Yakisoba, throw in a limited supply of lumpia for good measure), etc.

As far as the cooking goes, I think part of the problem is cooking so early: lunch is done by 0900-0930ish on my current ship and then spends until 1100 on the steam plates just making everything overcooked and/or soggy. Why does it have to be done so early?!

 

[DanMa1156]

Because enlisted crew don't get BAS at all whenever attached to a ship. Not even chiefs. They are expected to eat every meal on the ship or in the galley. I learned this the hard way when I caught an earful as a LTJG for scheduling an event during in port breakfast but didn't coordinate to move the meal hour.

Whoever made the policy correctly assumed that officers will eat a substantial amount of meals out in town, so we don't get BAS for that. Add up the time in flight school and post JO shore duty where you eat one meal at the galley if that, and you'll quickly see that you're benefitting from this deal despite being in the red when underway. My understanding is enlisted in the airwing get BAS so maybe AM2 makes even better... It's okay to give him a win.

The tl;dr is yes it's broken, but in a way that financially benefits you in a substantial way. Let it be.

False. Look at the enlisted LES these days. They get BAS then a BAS Deduction. The BAS is more than that of Officers' and the deduction is the same as ours ($10.60 per day for meals).

 

[Treetop Flyer]

We don't have to sleep at the squadron every once or twice a week when we're shore based, so there is that. I'm not sure what my pay point for that would be, whether sea pay would offset the misery or not.

(Life hack: be on a sea going staff that is "embarked" on the flagship while it's in port.)

/br

Breaded hamster is still a thing underway, right? Please don't tell me the 21 Day Menu doesn't have breaded hamster!

Marine JO’s sleep at the squadron at least once a month. Of course in the Navy guns are scary so anyone with a rape whistle will do.

 

[taxi1]

My dad was an AK (aviation storekeeper) rating. Growing up, I thought every kid in elementary school had an unlimited supply of those "US Government" pens.

 

[Hair Warrior]

Harvard Business School trained all Army and Navy supply/quartermaster officers from 1942-45, on campus. The course was approx 5 months long. All Navy ENS SUPPOs completed this course before going to the fleet.

https://www.library.hbs.edu/hc/doriot/innovation-vc/wartime-innovation/#

 

[AllAmerican75]

We're still talking about cooking, right? This is a basic life skill, it's not like rebuilding an engine.

How is a CSC having to train a new CSSN any different than training a new line cook at a restaurant? This process should normally take a few days at most, with some added oversight if the recipe is more complicated/finicky (like steak). I get the Navy doesn't have the best ingredients, but it's not hard at all to make sure that the food is cooked to the correct amount of doneness with the proper amount of flavoring. Funny how the cooks will often rediscover this estranged skill if hosting a VIP. That isn't a problem fixed with policy in Washington, it's a problem fixed with shipboard leadership. I've been on boats that do this well and poorly - same food, different cooks.

Also, someone seriously dropped the ball if your CO either didn't know that there was no money for ice cream, or thought there was but wasn't. However, your point stands that the chop screwing up the books can lead to crappy meals just as much as cooks who turn surf and turf night into rubber and leather.

How many Sailors or JOs have you met who can't cook? I've met a bunch. CSC is simply too busy running the messing and food stores management as well as all of the goat locker and collateral duty nonsense he needs to do to get promoted to CSCS. He ain't got time for actually being in the galley. I think that's one of the problems with the way CPOs are handled these days. It's the same shit as other rates where Chiefs are too busy doing paperwork and jockeying collateral duties to actually be training their junior Sailors and out on the deck plates managing. This is a Navy-wide problem and not just a Supply problem. Usually, training junior cooks is handled by CS1 and CS2 who are the guys actually running the galley service each shift. This can be hit or miss depending upon their career and background (I've known CSs who were 5 star chefs and others who did well on tests and the admin portion of the job). Most of the galleys I've seen, CSC is rarely ever in the galley or out on the mess decks. Again, this is for small boys. Big Decks which have an actual billeted FSO Supply-type officer or Warrant may differ.

EDIT: Also, many small boys don't have a CSC and are making do with one or two CS1s.

As for my CO, he knew and didn't care. He was going to have his "goddamn hard pack ice cream, SUPPO!" This is one of the least egregious things he did.

I am quite familiar with NAVSUP P-486. On my most recent deployment I got in several arguments with our SUPPO about it. I went the route you recommended earlier - the "sampling the mess gradesheet route," and cited specific examples of failures from NAVSUP P-486. I got a nasty phone call: "do you know Skipper sees these?! What am I supposed to do?" "Yes. And admit that you messed up like an officer and fix the problem and tell him it won't happen again?" WRT the 21 day menu, frustratingly, you can have the same meals every 7 days and state: "well yeah, multiply that by 3 and you have 21 days." Outside of a few changes in dinner, every meal was the exact same thing each day of the week i.e.: fake Italian (reheated Stouffer's) mondays, taco Tuesday, frozen burger Wednesdays, fake Asian Thursdays (mixing spaghetti with ground beef along with some peppers and onions and calling it Yakisoba, throw in a limited supply of lumpia for good measure), etc.

As far as the cooking goes, I think part of the problem is cooking so early: lunch is done by 0900-0930ish on my current ship and then spends until 1100 on the steam plates just making everything overcooked and/or soggy. Why does it have to be done so early?!

Sounds like you have a bad SUPPO and/or SUPPLY department. I feel for you, man, I really do. Among the things that piss me off the most when at sea are Sailors who reply "But, sir, we've always done it that way," bad chow (though my standards are low due given my alma mater), not being able to sleep after the reveille watch, and piss poor performance that's related to people literally not giving a single fuck about their job (Supply included). We had our night baker, CS3 type, get into a spat with his lover (this is on an FFG so it was a rather sensitive subject all the way around) and decided he was going to phone it in that week. I spend the entire rev watch being tortured by the wonderful aroma of blueberry muffins wafting throughout the ship. Imagine my shock, horror, and dismay when I arrive to the wardroom to indulge in said blueberry muffins shortly after being relieved to find that they are completely inedible because CS3 decided he didn't give enough of a fuck that evening and had reversed the ratios of salt and sugar.

Breaded hamster is still a thing underway, right? Please don't tell me the 21 Day Menu doesn't have breaded hamster!

Breaded hamsters, slider Wednesdays, taco tuesdays, pizza Friday/Saturdays, lumpia, adobo, pancit, surf and turf, and autodog are all still on the menu.

 

[Hair Warrior]

words

Dumb question, is there a CS 'A' school where new sailors get trained how to cook basic stuff?

 

[AllAmerican75]

Dumb question, is there a CS 'A' school where new sailors get trained how to cook basic stuff?

Yes. In the early 2000s through to the mid-2010s it was largely all CBT-based with training expected to occur in the Fleet. It's getting better and I've been told the product coming out of the Fleet is vastly improved. There are also a number of C Schools that run the gamut from how to manage the logistics of getting food out to sea all the way up to cake decorating and advanced pastry cheffing taught by Cordon Bleu (Our CS1 on USS First Ship had been to that school and he did amazing things when he could get away from admin duties).

This issue isn't just training but a systemic problem of how we manage our entire messing and food services within the Navy. We've streamlined too much, cut costs too far, and have put in place rigid regulations designed to prevent fraud and abuse (Hence no more wardrooms purchasing their own food from out on the economy) but actually just make our lives more difficult.

EDIT: Culinary Specialist is also one of the rates that can be struck. Therefore, the young blue jackets who strike CS and become CSSNs or CS3s lack any sort of formal training.

 

[ABMD]

We're still talking about cooking, right? This is a basic life skill, it's not like rebuilding an engine.

How is a CSC having to train a new CSSN any different than training a new line cook at a restaurant? This process should normally take a few days at most, with some added oversight if the recipe is more complicated/finicky (like steak). I get the Navy doesn't have the best ingredients, but it's not hard at all to make sure that the food is cooked to the correct amount of doneness with the proper amount of flavoring. Funny how the cooks will often rediscover this estranged skill if hosting a VIP. That isn't a problem fixed with policy in Washington, it's a problem fixed with shipboard leadership. I've been on boats that do this well and poorly - same food, different cooks.

Also, someone seriously dropped the ball if your CO either didn't know that there was no money for ice cream, or thought there was but wasn't. However, your point stands that the chop screwing up the books can lead to crappy meals just as much as cooks who turn surf and turf night into rubber and leather.

They actually have an award for the best galley, the Ney Award. One of our instructors, who apparently DOR'ed from flight school, won the award as an FSO. Ah the pubs, everything you need to know is in the 486, Ctrl +F was our friend.

 

[Spekkio]

How many Sailors or JOs have you met who can't cook? I've met a bunch. CSC is simply too busy running the messing and food stores management as well as all of the goat locker and collateral duty nonsense he needs to do to get promoted to CSCS. He ain't got time for actually being in the galley. I think that's one of the problems with the way CPOs are handled these days. It's the same shit as other rates where Chiefs are too busy doing paperwork and jockeying collateral duties to actually be training their junior Sailors and out on the deck plates managing. This is a Navy-wide problem and not just a Supply problem. Usually, training junior cooks is handled by CS1 and CS2 who are the guys actually running the galley service each shift. This can be hit or miss depending upon their career and background (I've known CSs who were 5 star chefs and others who did well on tests and the admin portion of the job). Most of the galleys I've seen, CSC is rarely ever in the galley or out on the mess decks. Again, this is for small boys. Big Decks which have an actual billeted FSO Supply-type officer or Warrant may differ.

I disagree with your assessment that the solution resides in Washington, and I think that your assertion that 'the food system in the Navy is systemically broken' is hyperbole.

The NAVSUP P-486 puts the overall responsibility for the mess in the hands of the CO. The difference between the best and worst food in the Navy was triad engagement. When the CO and XO holds the Chop and CSC accountable for aforementioned inedible blueberry muffins (when crew can't eat and it wastes money, it's a big deal), the CS1 and CSC make sure it's done right.

I also think that your mk1 mod 0 CSC has enough time to make sure his junior sailors are being properly trained. I highlighted this as a basic life skill not because everyone should know how to cook, but that it doesn't take extensive training to cook basic dishes in the Navy 21 day menu.

'The system' has created a structure where there are clear standards and it's up to the ship to ensure it's executed and the quality of prepared food passes muster. When you have a ship putting out cardboard muffins, guaranteed that multiple people didn't execute their duties and responsibilities per NAVSUP P-486. Expecting 'big supply' to fix this on a deployed ship is like asking Congress to solve illegal gun violence.

Things a JO/DH can do to try to move the needle besides CO/XO love notes:
-Actually talk to the CSC. If a meal sucks and doesn't meet standards, let him know why in a constructive way. Also make sure you also give positive feedback by name when appropriate, too.

-If the CSC won't get engaged, talk to the CMC. Encourage your division to do the same, particularly if the food on the general mess is as poor as what you're getting in the WR. CMC is usually good at fixing chiefs.

-If all else fails and there's no movement, mass feedback on command climate surveys. They go to ISIC.

 

[AllAmerican75]

I disagree with your assessment that the solution resides in Washington, and I think that your assertion that 'the food system in the Navy is systemically broken' is hyperbole.

The NAVSUP P-486 puts the overall responsibility for the mess in the hands of the CO. The difference between the best and worst food in the Navy was triad engagement. When the CO and XO holds the Chop and CSC accountable for aforementioned inedible blueberry muffins (when crew can't eat and it wastes money, it's a big deal), the CS1 and CSC make sure it's done right.

I also think that your mk1 mod 0 CSC has enough time to make sure his junior sailors are being properly trained. I highlighted this as a basic life skill not because everyone should know how to cook, but that it doesn't take extensive training to cook basic dishes in the Navy 21 day menu.

'The system' has created a structure where there are clear standards and it's up to the ship to ensure it's executed and the quality of prepared food passes muster. When you have a ship putting out cardboard muffins, guaranteed that multiple people didn't execute their duties and responsibilities per NAVSUP P-486. Expecting 'big supply' to fix this on a deployed ship is like asking Congress to solve illegal gun violence.

Things a JO/DH can do to try to move the needle besides CO/XO love notes:
-Actually talk to the CSC. If a meal sucks and doesn't meet standards, let him know why in a constructive way. Also make sure you also give positive feedback by name when appropriate, too.

-If the CSC won't get engaged, talk to the CMC. Encourage your division to do the same, particularly if the food on the general mess is as poor as what you're getting in the WR. CMC is usually good at fixing chiefs.

-If all else fails and there's no movement, mass feedback on command climate surveys. They go to ISIC.

Honestly, I don't think the fix is solely on the shoulders of NAVSUP but NAVSUP does need to give SUPPOs afloat more freedom to take charge of their messing service and spice it up when needed. At the same time, SUPPOs need to actually lead their departments and place as much emphasis on the quality of the food as they do on CASREPs and whiskey reqs. There's also a culture whether due to actual regulation or perception resulting from things like Fat Leonard that SUPPOs can't step outside of a certain way of doing things even when it clearly has subpar results.

Also, I think it's hit or miss whether a command triad is involved and engaged in the food service on board. Most seem to treat it like an afterthought and the managerial culture within the Surface Navy is not one that prioritizes good chow and things that boost morale. Maybe I'm just cynical but I think shitty chow will be more common than not as long as the Surface Fleet continues to not prioritize it.

 

[Birdbrain]

How can the most professional flying, floating, and sinking fighting force in the world get real food for the many benefits of a proper diet such as better work performance, lifelong health, and the boost in morale from eating and drinking things that are nutritious and taste damn good after a long and hard day's work? You need to feed your body with the nutrients it needs, not a reheated and processed excuse for food.

It's way more than just a calorie.

 

[Spekkio]

Honestly, I don't think the fix is solely on the shoulders of NAVSUP but NAVSUP does need to give SUPPOs afloat more freedom to take charge of their messing service and spice it up when needed.

I think you're getting into a separate issue. What rules governing SUPPOs are preventing the cooks from making food per the recipe card to the proper level of doneness while maintaining proper health and sanitary standards? That's the issue here.

The fact that you or I might not like some dishes when prepared properly is irrelevant to the above (for me it's chicken fried steak with cauliflower that will always make me go to my oatmeal stash). There's surveys and menu review boards to look at that stuff.

Also, what rules do you want to see that SUPPOs /CSC can't do to 'spice it up?' I think that they have plenty of leeway to do special meals.

At the same time, SUPPOs need to actually lead their departments and place as much emphasis on the quality of the food as they do on CASREPs and whiskey reqs.

Agreed. But recognize that the FSO / chop is probably a green JO. So help him out and go to CSC with him.

There's also a culture whether due to actual regulation or perception resulting from things like Fat Leonard that SUPPOs can't step outside of a certain way of doing things even when it clearly has subpar results.

I think now you're crossing streams between food and parts.

Also, I think it's hit or miss whether a command triad is involved and engaged in the food service on board. Most seem to treat it like an afterthought and the managerial culture within the Surface Navy is not one that prioritizes good chow and things that boost morale.

Sure, and just like anything else there are good, mediocre, and bad COs wrt mentoring their suppo/csc and enforcing mess standards. The good ones know the effect this can have on morale and make it a priority.

 

[AllAmerican75]

How can the most professional flying, floating, and sinking fighting force in the world get real food for the many benefits of a proper diet such as better work performance, lifelong health, and the boost in morale from eating and drinking things that are nutritious and taste damn good after a long and hard day's work? You need to feed your body with the nutrients it needs, not a reheated and processed excuse for food.

Huh? Have you ever been to sea? At some point the fresh stuff runs out and you end up with canned, rehydrated, and frozen food. There's only so much freezer and reefer space, so eventually even the frozen stuff runs out. How quickly all this stuff runs out is dependent upon the size of the ship and the crew. If you're on a gator with none of the Yut-Yuts embarked, then you'll end up with lots of space in the gym and lots of chow on board. If you're on an independently deployed small boy with a full air det, VIPs, and crew on board, then it's gonna run out much quicker. Despite all of our bitching, the Navy does an outstanding job of making sure that every Sailor on every ship gets a warm meal three times a day (or more if you get midrats) 24/7/365. Is the meal 5 star? Not at all. Does it get the job done? Absolutely.

Navy chow is on par with most other institutional food, it's decent. It can't all be hamsters, pancit, and lumpia.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Of all the various annoyances of boat life and failed shoe-airwing integration, I wouldn't rate mess bills or the actual food to really be very high on the list. Did it irk me to shell out $330/month to pay for 4 meals when I only was afforded the opportunity to realistically eat 2-3 (or frequently 1)? Yes. Was the food fantastic? No. There are a few precious CS's out there who make life better for everyone, and I think they take pride in that. But me.......I mostly just ate chicken and rice, or pasta and marinara while underway, with plenty of salad and fruit. The latter 2 being extremely important if trying to stay "regular". My diet wasn't really balanced or healthy in any sense of the terms, but it's like 7-10 months......I think people will be ok. And hamsters are great. My other personal fave was the breaded chicken breasts if they didn't F them up.......little mustard, some kraut....nom nom