ABMD
Bullets don't fly without Supply
Is this a serious statement?
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Is this a serious statement?
ABMD
Bullets don't fly without Supply
Probably the same people that think the Reserves is ONLY 1 weekend/month and 2 weeks/year.
Jones29681
Member
That's a fair statement. I can only speak for myself, but it's not so much that any future extended period of active time is a problem, but rather front loading such a large chunk while trying to attract qualified people that the Navy needs outside of more "typical" ascension methods, otherwise the DCO program wouldn't be necessary. Bottom line is that it's a barrier to entry. If the Navy has the data that officers who went through DCOIC were underperforming in some regard relative to officers that went through other methods, then it may be an important and necessary barrier to entry.
I guess the numbers will bear out in a few years if switching to 5 weeks was the right move. I don't think anyone disagrees that it's a positive for training consistency. I'm just unsure if it's a good move as far as getting a large pool of qualified applicants. Who knows though, the selection rates are pretty low so I guess the market is favoring the Navy in this regard.
Don't forget, it's also a large cost savings to the Navy to consolidate naval officer programs by eliminating DCOIC.
Even with the increased amount of time it remains a very low barrier to entry though, especially when compared to the other services accession training requirements. I have no idea what, or even if the Navy has, data on DCO accessions and their 'success' rate but it wold be very hard to quantify since they have no equivalent in the Navy.
There is a very large pool of qualified folks who are applying for DCO programs, I think the Navy will have little problem filling its billets for a long time.
To be frank I am not really sure the Navy really needs the DCO program. The program remains worth it to the Navy partly because of the very small investment they make in DCO's, who cost a fraction of most other folks commissioned, but whether or not they are needed I think is a good question. They definitely make up a good number of the Intel O's I've dealt with but I'm not sure their total numbers, or better yet whether or not we even need those numbers since I've known plenty of Intel O's talk about their Intel units sitting around and staring at each other or the walls most drill weekends.
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Jones29681
Member
That's a very good point that I hadn't considered. As someone looking to get into a very small community (HR), I admittedly have some blind spots as it relates to the larger communities.
The Navy would have to decide whether they want any reserve ENS/LTJG or not who aren’t LDOs. Any O’s coming off of AD will likely be O-3 and above, due to the 4+ year minimum service obligation of OCS/USNA/NROTC.
Also, whereas an O-3 coming off AD to SELRES will certainly be a trained, experienced fountain of knowledge and sea stories, that person will also be wanting and expecting to adjust to their new civilian careers/grad school, and will not necessarily approach the SELRES duty in the same way/ with the same perspective as a new DCO would. Case in point, I’m the sh-tty little jobs O for two sh-tty little jobs for my unit. I’m happy to do it, I’ve never done either collateral before in the Navy, and I have zero ego about it. An O-3 who has just been wrung out to dry after a returning from a hard fill unaccompanied tour to a Bahrain watch floor may not have the same attitude if he or she suddenly finds himself or herself as the lowest ranking O in a SELRES unit comprised only of former AD officers (all O-3 or above), and no new DCO ENS/LTJGs to help pick up the administrative slack. Not to mention DCO JOs who are willing to mob so the former AD O-3 doesn’t have to. That’s what DCO brings to the Navy and the Navy Reserve.
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Goodfou
Well-Known Member
Ever been to a Navy Reserve squadron?
That is how all URL reservists join the reserves, I see no reason why it wouldn't work for other designators.
I still do shitty little jobs for my unit even after 20+ years in the Navy, one of which had my CO sending me emails asking for updates over the weekend. Again, welcome to the Navy.
Big picture wise, this is a low-cost but also relatively low-impact program that fills a niche with the Navy. None of the other DoD services have an equivalent accession program for officers in the designators/specialties that the Navy does it for, and I don't think the Navy has found some secret formula for success the other services haven't. So I'm wary about folks complaining about increased training times to the bare bones accession training reserve DCO's receive.
Like I've said elsewhere on this thread, I've known several fine DCO Intel O's along with a few other DCO types who have served their country well but the necessity of the program is still a question mark for me.
Put simply, not everyone wants to be a reservist after they've completed their initial MSO.
Edit: For the record, I'm agnostic on DCOIC vs ODS. It sounds like Big Navy has made its decision, and I fully support it.
However, whether the commissioning source for new reserve officers is DCO, ODS, OCS, or even NROTC, the Navy needs some reserve officers to fill the demand signal, because we aren't retaining enough officers in SELRES after they leave active duty. Case in point, Navy doctors and nurses. They comprise a huge % of DCOs, and the Navy still can't find enough of them (so they offer higher rank plus sign-on bonuses).
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bluemarlin04
Well-Known Member
The thing about intel is that its a small community on active duty and the reserves cannot meet the required numbers if theyre just relying on AD transfers. URLs have way more officers to convince to the reserves.
Most people, myself included, come off active duty burnt out and barely able to stomach doing the reserves. I have so little motivation to be an intelligence officer in the reserves but I am sticking it out. I already have good fitreps and quals from active so I am just biding time til I hit my 20 and not looking to mobilize or do anything. If DCOs want to fill those spots than have it.
One of the big sources of frustration to me is that a lot of the DCOs have barely any idea what its like to be assigned to a type II sea duty unit and gone all the time doing workups. So the whole "5 weeks is too much thing" tends to grind my gears.
Most people, myself included, come off active duty burnt out and barely able to stomach doing the reserves. I have so little motivation to be an intelligence officer in the reserves but I am sticking it out. I already have good fitreps and quals from active so I am just biding time til I hit my 20 and not looking to mobilize or do anything. If DCOs want to fill those spots than have it.
One of the big sources of frustration to me is that a lot of the DCOs have barely any idea what its like to be assigned to a type II sea duty unit and gone all the time doing workups. So the whole "5 weeks is too much thing" tends to grind my gears.
D
Deleted member 67144 scul
Guest
I certainly understand that sentiment. That and a dozen other factors, including life not getting in the way so much anymore, enabled me to join, albeit years later than I intended, and not active duty as I had also originally intended. But 3-5 years, depending on the designator, to qualify and be able to go for MOBs and some ADSW/etc., is a long time. In that span of time, it's possible such people wouldn't be single and hating their job anymore, among other considerations. It would be a lot different if it was going through whichever officer training, then going through a school, and being able to go for ADSW and MOBs as an ENS. Not, for example, 6 separate training evolutions all over the place which precede a board.
Agreed. Free college and a 3-4 year extracurricular, for example, are very expensive compared to passing around paperwork and a fork-and-knife school.
Also agreed there's a question mark on if the Navy needs the program, though my unit is certainly very busy compared to the units you describe. That sounds painful. While there's numerous community announcements for available CONUS+Hawaii ADSW billets for O-3+, otherwise it's largely MOBs to Djibouti, Bahrain, or Afghanistan doing what sounds like monkey work or because the Army wants more warm bodies to oversee building roads. Does the Navy really need people to do that?
There's a reason for that. If you know some of these types on the active side, then you know there's a game to it for most of them. Go to med school for free, residency with the Navy, and then leave. Not being $100,000s in debt while making more money than civilian residents make? Of course active duty medical types will take advantage of this and then leave to the big bucks in the civilian sector following their residency. It's a ridiculously incredible deal.
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bluemarlin04
Well-Known Member
Every flight doc and MO I worked with left ASAP all to higher paying jobs.
There is also tons of O-5/O-6 Doctors in the Navy who have never completed a residency. I dont know how that is even a thing but it is.
That is the case for URL's as well, but we scrape by.
You have a point about SELRES numbers, but you use a very poor example. Docs, nurses, JAG's and Chaplains are all special categories of folks, almost all trained professionals in their billet by the time they come into the service with minimal military-specific training necessary for the vast majority. That is not the case with most other Navy DCO's who have to be trained from scratch, whether they think they are prepared or not.
For medical professionals in the Navy Reserve at least there was also a grand plan what those reserve docs and nurses would do in wartime dating back to the Cold War, it has changed a bit since then but they are still many are still able to fill in the blanks with minimal training where that is not the case with other DCO's.
And that gets to the heart of it, the Navy Reserve has become a 'free labor' gap filler for enduring requirements overseas that will not be ending anytime soon. While some are going to designator-specific billets many aren't, or are going billets that could be filled by Intel Brand X from any service or even civilians. cutting down on those would leave a lot of Intel types, along with a few others, with even less to do than now.
Haha, I knew you'd chime in.AULANI -Dissing Newport! You've been a voice of reason on every post till now. I drill there - best place ever...
Kandahar is better than Norfolk.