Hot new helicopter/rotorcraft news

[ChuckMK23]

Here is a link to Bell 407GXi performance charts - in the back of this brochure - also good detail on the life limited parts and specific components that do have TBO intervals. After everything, Bell claims < $600 per hour. That's pretty damn good - and why the 407 makes money for commercial operators pretty much everywhere.

https://jbi.com.pl/download.php?f=download_16_1&n=general%20information.pdf

If I had to wager, I'd say Bell will come out ahead on acquisition and sustainability costs. But this contract award wont be just about cost.

Bell and Leonardo both have yet to be awarded SP IFR certification. That's the big unknown and variable in all this IMHO. Will NAVAIR/CNATRA value 2 engines and IFR over cost? That's an influence peddling and sales game - Airbus is quite good at that.

Airbus would manufacture in Mississippi - and Roger Wicker is a influential guy on Senate Armed Services Committee - specifically the Seapower subcommittee. That will be a major factor.

 

[Gatordev]

I never dove too deep into the details on operating cost when doing the RSNF stuff, but my understanding is that the operating cost will vary depending on whether the program is bought as a package (aircraft and parts train) or just the aircraft. Presumably the Navy would buy it as a package (why wouldn't they?), but if that's the case, it would seem to me that the operating cost wouldn't just be dependent on fuel prices. And how much of the parts train is it buying? That's another issue.

The H135 - well @Gatordev would know better than anyone but I heard 65 GPH as a fuel flow and I believe a new one will run $5.5 mm or so.

We plan to 60 GPH which seems pretty legit. More fuel burn in the hover (every landing and take off is to/from a HOGE), but cruise it comes down. We're also heavier than what your average TH-xx will be, but I'm not sure how much that matters. Maybe it does if you're doing a lot of early Fam work.

 

[ChuckMK23]

The other thought that comes to mind - Navy could very well back off from the FAA certification requirement for SPIFR and operate any aircraft they chose IFR in the National Airspace System all day long and not give a f*ck what FAA certifies or doesn't certify. The FAA certification for SP IFR on TH-XX is entirely self imposed. Navy encumbered itself with the desire for N numbers and FAA Airworthiness Certificate. But that does not have to be the case.

 

[Gatordev]

The other thought that comes to mind - Navy could very well back off from the FAA certification requirement for SPIFR and operate any aircraft they chose IFR in the National Airspace System all day long and not give a f*ck what FAA certifies or doesn't certify. The FAA certification for SP IFR on TH-XX is entirely self imposed. Navy encumbered itself with the desire for N numbers and FAA Airworthiness Certificate. But that does not have to be the case.

Talking to HT IPs "on the road" while I'm getting gas, that doesn't really seem to be a way forward. "Don't plan on full-auto touchdowns" seems to be more the mantra more than "just roll with what NAVAIR says is good..." And to be honest, I'm not unhappy with that sentiment.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Talking to HT IPs "on the road" while I'm getting gas, that doesn't really seem to be a way forward. "Don't plan on full-auto touchdowns" seems to be more the mantra more than "just roll with what NAVAIR says is good..." And to be honest, I'm not unhappy with that sentiment.

Curious if you think acquisition decision will hinge (see what I did there?) on what the transitory populace of HT IP's would think...If so and full auto's are a the way forward, then indeed Navy could select the Bell product, operate SP IFR under their due regard authority in the NAS, and call it done. And honestly why not - these aircraft will be long term holds and have little need for an Airworthiness Certificate or N Number...

 

[Gatordev]

I'm sure I'm not educated enough to give you that answer. Personally I think it will come down how much capital HT IPs are given in their input, which isn't something I'm privy to.

But given the sheer amount of 407s in service, I can't imagine Bell not making this happen with the fiscal help of DoD.

 

[croakerfish]

The other thought that comes to mind - Navy could very well back off from the FAA certification requirement for SPIFR and operate any aircraft they chose IFR in the National Airspace System all day long and not give a f*ck what FAA certifies or doesn't certify. The FAA certification for SP IFR on TH-XX is entirely self imposed. Navy encumbered itself with the desire for N numbers and FAA Airworthiness Certificate. But that does not have to be the case.

Run this by me again. Are you saying that the military has the legal right to ignore FAA requirements INCONUS?

 

[Gatordev]

Run this by me again. Are you saying that the military has the legal right to ignore FAA requirements INCONUS?

Yes. It's called Public Aircraft Operations. DoD (and other public operations like LE) aren't required to abide by the FARs. Generally an entity will abide by most of the Part 91 regulations to help efficiently utilize the NAS, but it's a courtesy, not a requirement. This is why/how your Navy aircraft doesn't follow Part 23 maintenance/certification rules.

 

[croakerfish]

Yes. It's called Public Aircraft Operations. DoD (and other public operations like LE) aren't required to abide by the FARs. Generally an entity will abide by most of the Part 91 regulations to help efficiently utilize the NAS, but it's a courtesy, not a requirement. This is why/how your Navy aircraft doesn't follow Part 23 maintenance/certification rules.

Mind blown.

 

[Gatordev]

Mind blown.

This is also why the whole "Only the CNO/CMC can violate you..." thing is a thing. The FAA knows this, so they actually try and help to protect your civilian ticket by putting some firewalls in place, like the region FAA rep that the Navy has in various fleet concentration areas. Not sure what region the TWs fall into, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same guy in Atlanta that we had that's the shit-screen.

 

[phrogdriver]

Both of the single engine contenders - Bell and the Leonardo - seem to operate at around 50 GPH of JET-A. I'm guessing very similar operating costs. Same for acquisition costs - around $3mm per.... (by design since they compete with each other in the commercial market).

The H135 - well @Gatordev would know better than anyone but I heard 65 GPH as a fuel flow and I believe a new one will run $5.5 mm or so.

The Leonardo has by the highest sustainment costs of the 3, even the H135. Its PT6 engine uses a lot of fuel. Plus it has high overhaul costs. It has the cheapest list price in commercial configuration though, so it comes down to pay now or pay later.

The Bell sucks just over 30g an hour, depending on speed.

The AB is most expensive upfront but is in-between in operating costs.

Go to bell.co/navy407 and go to the "learn more" download.

 

[phrogdriver]

Guys, there's no mystery what the criteria for selection are. I don't know why you're all just randomly speculating when the answers to all these questions are written in black and white. They're all written in the Section L of the RFP, available to the public on fedbizopps.gov.

The Navy doesn't care at all about the number of engines. It cares just a tiny bit about full autos (power recovery is a threshold KPP and full autos are an objective KPP). It cares equally about acquisition and sustainment cost, though it states it wants "best value," vice cheapest (aka "lowest cost technically acceptable"). It will absolutely not budge on FAA IFR cert.

 

[phrogdriver]

Color me dumb on the topic as I've really done next to 0 homework on the topic, but overall, out of the candidates, who has the lowest acquisition cost and who has the lowest sustainment cost? Also, just from a business perspective, why wouldn't Bell (or any other company for that matter) submit more than one helo, does it cost that much to pitch it to the Navy?

It costs a great deal to put a proposal together, just in terms of manpower and expertise. Also, you don't want to look like you're just throwing spaghetti on the wall to see if it sticks.

 

[Randy Daytona]

The Bell sucks just over 30g an hour, depending on speed.

30 GPH?

 

[ChuckMK23]

Really? 30GPH?

I get 43 GPH at long range cruise at 4000 LBS - which arguably isn't bad. But no way 30 GPH.