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Logging time

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
Exactly what I'm trying to avoid. Part of feels like just bringing my military logbooks and forgoing the civilian logbook deal. If they understand that 1700 military hours is equal to 2250 civlian (or whatever adding a .3 on to every flight equates to), then it seems like doing all of that conversion is just setting myself up for mistakes.

As far as the majors go, obviously I'm not the first single seat military guy that they've seen. They'll know what my logbook equates to, roughly. What I don't want is an integrity issue out of administrative buffoonery on my part. It seems like only an idiot would go in there and flat out make shit up on their logbooks. Like I said, I won't be their first guy to go through this and I'm sure that they know all of the BS inflation tricks.

Anythought from the airline pilots out there? HAL? A4s?
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Not all airlines allow a conversion factor. For those, the civilian log might make you more competitive. I.e. you can walk in with a military log showing 2000 hours or a civilian log showing 2500 hours.

If you go the corporate route, it might be an insurance thing. I've never heard of an insurance company allowing a conversion factor. SO your civilian log might get you above the insurance numbers and therefore get you the job.

FAA doesn't allow a conversion factor as far as I know. It might make a difference in having the flight time requirements for your ATP or when you can get the ATP.

If you use an electronic log that allows you to input your block out, t/o, land and block in times, it should be able to calculate your flight times in both manners. Then it is easy to show that your civilian log really does match your military log. It's harder to do this when you are starting to keep a civilian log later in your military career. That is why I've always suggested to the new guys on here to do this from day one of their flight training.
 

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
Not all airlines allow a conversion factor. For those, the civilian log might make you more competitive. I.e. you can walk in with a military log showing 2000 hours or a civilian log showing 2500 hours.

If you go the corporate route, it might be an insurance thing. I've never heard of an insurance company allowing a conversion factor. SO your civilian log might get you above the insurance numbers and therefore get you the job.

FAA doesn't allow a conversion factor as far as I know. It might make a difference in having the flight time requirements for your ATP or when you can get the ATP.

If you use an electronic log that allows you to input your block out, t/o, land and block in times, it should be able to calculate your flight times in both manners. Then it is easy to show that your civilian log really does match your military log. It's harder to do this when you are starting to keep a civilian log later in your military career. That is why I've always suggested to the new guys on here to do this from day one of their flight training.
Glad I saw this thread. So would you normally not be dealing with former military types during the airline interview process? It seems like there would be enough guys who have been there, that those organizations would be familiar with these differences. Is this not the case?
 

loadtoad

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Can I log my Microsoft Flight Sim time can you it to get a PPL? I have about 40 hours logged in my book so far. I think I can just go do a check ride and get it!
 

Single Seat

Average member
pilot
None
Exactly what I'm trying to avoid. Part of feels like just bringing my military logbooks and forgoing the civilian logbook deal. If they understand that 1700 military hours is equal to 2250 civlian (or whatever adding a .3 on to every flight equates to), then it seems like doing all of that conversion is just setting myself up for mistakes.

As far as the majors go, obviously I'm not the first single seat military guy that they've seen. They'll know what my logbook equates to, roughly. What I don't want is an integrity issue out of administrative buffoonery on my part. It seems like only an idiot would go in there and flat out make shit up on their logbooks. Like I said, I won't be their first guy to go through this and I'm sure that they know all of the BS inflation tricks.

Anythought from the airline pilots out there? HAL? A4s?
Get something straight first... 1700 hours does NOT equal 2250 civilian. The airlines simply give it to you because they know we log time different. The company I worked at before joining the Navy would take applicants flight time, and multiply it by 1.3. Each airline is different. You're right about fonging up the admin. The interview will go down hill real quick if they start finding errors in your math. They figure if you want to work there so bad, you've done the work to make sure everything is perfect. You'd think they'd understand, but won't.

To the thread starter, If you're really all that wrapped up about 7 hours of T-6 time, you probably haven't grasped the big picture yet.

Go to www.airlinepilotcentral.com if you really want to know more.
 

Harrier Dude

Living the dream
Get something straight first... 1700 hours does NOT equal 2250 civilian.
What I meant is that 1700=2250 (both numbers made up to illustrate the concept) becaues the same events (say 1000 different flights) were measured from different starting and ending points. One way of measuring is 1.7 hrs per flight and the other is 2.25. That's just standardizing the method of measurement. No implication of comparative quaility exists, if that's what you meant.



The airlines simply give it to you because they know we log time different.
They just "give it to me"? Why? Didn't I actually fly it according to how civilians keep track?

The company I worked at before joining the Navy would take applicants flight time, and multiply it by 1.3. Each airline is different.

It's funny you mention this method. Two of my buds got into a HUGE argument about this. One was going to adjust his hours this way, and the other was going to add .3 to each flight in his logbook to allow for taxi time. The idea being that especially long flights would be overrepresented. A 6 hour flight would be a 6.3 under one method and a 7.8 under the other. This applies more to heavy pilots, but the same theory holds true for us as well.


You're right about fonging up the admin. The interview will go down hill real quick if they start finding errors in your math. They figure if you want to work there so bad, you've done the work to make sure everything is perfect. You'd think they'd understand, but won't.
I'm less concerned about the math than I am about the methodology. I can calculate things perfectly using the wrong method and still end up looking like I fudged the books. I was looking for an industry standard, but I guess there isn't one. I'm probably going to start an electronic logbook like HAL suggested so that I can quickly adjust using different methods for different interviews.



Go to www.airlinepilotcentral.com if you really want to know more.
Good gouge. I also frequent PPW as well.
 

Single Seat

Average member
pilot
None
With the flight time what I meant was this... if you go to the FAA, and tell them "my 1700 hours is ACTUALLY 2200 (or whatever)" they are going to give you the stink eye.

The airlines adjusting your flight time is to help your competitiveness against guys that have flights that logged 45 minutes of taxi time, which I have a few of.

The argument, both guys were right, it depends on the company and how they want to adjust it. I'm personally for the 1.3 X's because of situations like I mentioned. Someone operating out of a busy/congested airport routinely could very well have 6.5 hour flights that are logged at a 7.8. A 30 minute taxi on both sides of the flight day in and day out will do that.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
With the flight time what I meant was this... if you go to the FAA, and tell them "my 1700 hours is ACTUALLY 2200 (or whatever)" they are going to give you the stink eye.
But if you walk into the FAA with a civilian log documenting the 2200 using out and in instead of off and on, you will get the credit.

Civilian logging is self certifying. If you have an electronic log that shows out, off, on and in times you can easily justify the difference between military times and civilian times. I know many military pilots who have done this.

Just to be clear, when you do this, use the actual times. I.e. 2215, 2225, 2325, 2333 for 1.0 flight and 1.3 block. The electronic log will calculate the 1.0 and 1.3 (at least a good one will).

BTW, I'm paranoid. I also keep a paper log back up. Once a month or so I transcribe from my electronic log into the paper log. Then the paper log goes back into the fire proof safe. I've seen too many guys lose their logs and have to try and reconstruct to the satisfaction of the FAA or interviewer. Not fun and hard to do.
 

FLY_USMC

Well-Known Member
pilot
I agree with HAL, accurately portraying your military time in a civilian logbook will save you heartache. .2-.3 is what I've always been told, and particular flight where you knew you sat in the pits for longer, make it longer.....in your civilian records. And let be honest, companies have been dealing with this for longer than most of us have been alive. If you think that senior leadership doesn't know their a difference...think again.

In my experience, going through a logbook during an interview was good for several purposes, and it wasn't solely to check if you lied on your flight time...a sim check would tell me that. I thumbed through them to check and see if I could quickly see any failed rides(during the flight portion) that we could ask them about and see how they responded. I checked for the plane they flew the most or the most recently, and typically would ask them to describe a system...ANY system...of their choice. I looked for something they flew...that I had flown...and asked about their experience in it...to get a feel for their personality. And last but not least, their was ALWAYS an instrument approach question...when can you descend below DH...runway environment...yada yada...for the check in the box.

I had heard from several friends that ExpressJet(old COEX) and mainline Continental had been doing post-9/11 style "group" interviews. You got a brief on the company, and they'd go around the room and ask you a question, only one, tailored to you and your flying....or to general knowledge...and they have just a personality interview individually later. Kind of cool.
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Block out and Block in, is that defined as start and shutdown or taxi and park?
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
I used to log straight off the hobbs when I was flying civ helos, which was engine start to shutdown for those who don't know what a hobbs is.

In a helo, I was "flying" the head from startup to shutdown.. No starting against the brake like a 60.
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Yeah, I know all about Hobbs, but that doesn't exist in military aircraft, as we all know. If it is strap-in to shutdown, well crap, the amount of time I've sat on a carrier deck waiting for the call to start would add up! I assume it's startup to shutdown.
 

Single Seat

Average member
pilot
None
Yeah, I know all about Hobbs, but that doesn't exist in military aircraft, as we all know. If it is strap-in to shutdown, well crap, the amount of time I've sat on a carrier deck waiting for the call to start would add up! I assume it's startup to shutdown.
Ya no shit... I'd have at LEAST another 100 hours of Hornet time just from last cruise.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I used to log straight off the hobbs when I was flying civ helos, which was engine start to shutdown for those who don't know what a hobbs is.

In a helo, I was "flying" the head from startup to shutdown.. No starting against the brake like a 60.
I'm sure it varies from aircraft to aircraft, but every civilian plane I've flown had the Hobbes start w/ battery on, so that gives even more time to the civilian.
 
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