Home Defense rounds

[nittany03]

Frankly, for home defense, the M4gery is totally unnecessary - it does look awesome though.

FTFY. I'm not a lawyer, but I would forsee a MUCH easier time being able to justify the use of a stock pistol or pump-action shotgun if, God forbid, I had to defend myself from a home invasion using deadly force. There's no way in hell I'd use an AR for home defense, even if I lived in the sticks and had a clear field of fire. Overpenetration with a rifle round is huge, unless you live alone on a farm. And worse, you're going to have to defend your use of an "evil" weapon that "no one needs to have" in front of a hostile prosecutor. And even if they pass, you'll have to answer to a hostile media who's out to tar and feather your extremist teabagger ass for having the macho gall to defend yourself with a firearm. Especially if you and your attacker do not share the same complexion.

In today's political climate, I'd keep the EBR in the safe and take multiple classes from reputable instructors before even thinking about using a stock and only stock firearm in self-defense. Anything less, and it seems that the legal bills and/or the media will rip your life apart. This rant could become a multi-page paper, but 'nuff said.

 

[Gatordev]

We can split the thread if we want. Personally I think it's an interesting topic to discuss. I did a little (very little) research into it one day at work and it seems like if you use the right round, you're looking at only going through two walls if you miss. That's probably as good or better than a 9mm with the wrong round.

That said, I would think a 16" rifle is a little more unwieldy than a pistol with a light on it. Either one is going to be really loud.

Frankly, for home defense, the Aimpoint is totally unnecessary - it does look awesome though.

Aside from Nit's point about even using a rifle, I disagree. Put the dot where you want to shoot and squeeze. Otherwise you need to line up the sights correctly while potentially being in an unconventional position...all while also managing a light if at night. Just finding your front sight can be a challenge at night, even with a light. And you can always leave the Aimpoint on...for 3-5+ years, depending on model.

 

[azguy]

FTFY. I'm not a lawyer, but I would forsee a MUCH easier time being able to justify the use of a stock pistol or pump-action shotgun if, God forbid, I had to defend myself from a home invasion using deadly force. There's no way in hell I'd use an AR for home defense, even if I lived in the sticks and had a clear field of fire. Overpenetration with a rifle round is huge, unless you live alone on a farm. And worse, you're going to have to defend your use of an "evil" weapon that "no one needs to have" in front of a hostile prosecutor. And even if they pass, you'll have to answer to a hostile media who's out to tar and feather your extremist teabagger ass for having the macho gall to defend yourself with a firearm. Especially if you and your attacker do not share the same complexion.

In today's political climate, I'd keep the EBR in the safe and take multiple classes from reputable instructors before even thinking about using a stock and only stock firearm in self-defense. Anything less, and it seems that the legal bills and/or the media will rip your life apart. This rant could become a multi-page paper, but 'nuff said.

Thanks for the feedback. We recently had a threat split with a very similar topic and I completely agree with you. You'd better live on a huge property in a flaming bright red state to consider an M4 for self defense.

Right now, I live in a place with shared walls anyway, so yeah, there's no way in hell I could consider using a rifle. My current HD gun is a Glock 19 (9mm) and I even worry about that.

 

[azguy]

We can split the thread if we want. Personally I think it's an interesting topic to discuss. I did a little (very little) research into it one day at work and it seems like if you use the right round, you're looking at only going through two walls if you miss. That's probably as good or better than a 9mm with the wrong round.

I've only researched the 9mm and the conventional seems to be: any decent self defense round will likely punch through a wall if you miss. Clearly JHP will punch through fewer than FMJ.

Aside from Nit's point about even using a rifle, I disagree. Put the dot where you want to shoot and squeeze. Otherwise you need to line up the sights correctly while potentially being in an unconventional position...all while also managing a light if at night. Just finding your front sight can be a challenge at night, even with a light. And you can always leave the Aimpoint on...for 3-5+ years, depending on model.

I'm not saying it won't help. But in close quarters it's hard to miss, very much a 'point and shoot' weapon.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I've only researched the 9mm and the conventional seems to be: any decent self defense round will likely punch through a wall if you miss. Clearly JHP will punch through fewer than FMJ.




I'm not saying it won't help. But in close quarters it's hard to miss, very much a 'point and shoot' weapon.

Have you thought about frangible rounds, I hope I spelled that right.

 

[Spekkio]

FTFY. I'm not a lawyer, but I would forsee a MUCH easier time being able to justify the use of a stock pistol or pump-action shotgun if, God forbid, I had to defend myself from a home invasion using deadly force. There's no way in hell I'd use an AR for home defense, even if I lived in the sticks and had a clear field of fire. Overpenetration with a rifle round is huge, unless you live alone on a farm. And worse, you're going to have to defend your use of an "evil" weapon that "no one needs to have" in front of a hostile prosecutor. And even if they pass, you'll have to answer to a hostile media who's out to tar and feather your extremist teabagger ass for having the macho gall to defend yourself with a firearm. Especially if you and your attacker do not share the same complexion.

In today's political climate, I'd keep the EBR in the safe and take multiple classes from reputable instructors before even thinking about using a stock and only stock firearm in self-defense. Anything less, and it seems that the legal bills and/or the media will rip your life apart. This rant could become a multi-page paper, but 'nuff said.

I think that YMMV depending on the local culture. After all, you are going to be tried in front of a jury of your peers, if it goes that far.

 

[azguy]

Have you thought about frangible rounds, I hope I spelled that right.

I don't know how much you've shot frangible, but I'd never trust it for self defense.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I don't know how much you've shot frangible, but I'd never trust it for self defense.

I haven't shot them, I am not in a place with shared walls but I have had an attorney speak about self defense and he emphasized that you are responsible for that bullet once it leaves your weapon so he said if you are in an apartment or condo with shared walls that frangible rounds are the way to go, if not while you may win you may still end up losing.

 

[azguy]

I haven't shot them, I am not in a place with shared walls but I have had an attorney speak about self defense and he emphasized that you are responsible for that bullet once it leaves your weapon so he said if you are in an apartment or condo with shared walls that frangible rounds are the way to go, if not while you may win you may still end up losing.

I've experienced a lot more jams with frang than with live rounds (from an M4). Not to mention, if something won't even penetrate drywall (by design), how much can it do to stop an intruder?

Agree that you "buy" every round that comes out of that muzzle - no doubt there.

 

[Gatordev]

I've only researched the 9mm and the conventional seems to be: any decent self defense round will likely punch through a wall if you miss. Clearly JHP will punch through fewer than FMJ.

Yeah, I really need to switch out the rounds that were in my Sig/nightstand gun right before I moved. I'm a little embarrassed I never got to that since I lived in an apartment. Then again, I really wasn't expecting that it would ever have been needed there.

I'm not saying it won't help. But in close quarters it's hard to miss, very much a 'point and shoot' weapon.

I've seen people at a competition who thought the same thing, but they still miss. I know you know about shooting under stress with your VBSS stuff, but it's still easy to miss.

Range story... Two summers ago, I was back home and shooting in a competition with my 11.5" SBR running an Aimpoint PRO. The course had you shoot 4 (?) targets at about 10 yards and then transition to a barricade and shoot at targets at about 40-50m, but it was easier to see the target if you shot left-handed (my strong hand is right). I ran the course and came in second. I think I actually missed with one round on one of the 10m targets and all of my 50m targets were in the A-zone. I remember saying out loud how the hell did I miss the 10m target with strong hand and hit all the others weak hand at a longer distance. It was also raining, so obviously I should just blame it on that, but realistically, I'm sure stress was part of it.

 

[BigRed389]

I remember saying out loud how the hell did I miss the 10m target with strong hand and hit all the others weak hand at a longer distance. It was also raining, so obviously I should just blame it on that, but realistically, I'm sure stress was part of it.

Did you sight in @25yds? If you missed missed a little high, that's one of those things that can catch people by surprise.

And I agree, if you're not actually practicing to quickly acquire a sight picture, you can be surprised at the shit you miss. Good way to test that is to check your muscle memory: bring it up like you'd take a snap shot, then check what your sights are on. When you can get those to line up instantly without thinking about it, then you're at "point and shoot." It's why I also think most off the shelf shotguns aren't ideal for home defense if you want to move around at all. I played around with an Israeli Tavor a few months ago...that thing is functionally awesome for CQB.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I've experienced a lot more jams with frang than with live rounds (from an M4). Not to mention, if something won't even penetrate drywall (by design), how much can it do to stop an intruder?

Agree that you "buy" every round that comes out of that muzzle - no doubt there.

That was part of the discussion as well, if a person is wearing heavy clothing you will have an issue.

The proper weapon/round for home defense is more complicated when you live in a place with shared walls, and laws are different state to state. What I would do if I moved to a new state would be to attend a self defense class that covered the laws of that state and then from what I learned would choose a weapon and ammunition that I would feel comfortable using as well as be able to explain my reasoning in court if the need should arise.

There is a new type of round out, I forget the name but maybe someone here knows, when it impacts the person it essentially shreds/bores/destroys any tissue it comes in contact with, much more than a typical hollow point round, when I read about what this round did my thought was it went beyond a round that could be considered stopping the threat, I am pretty sure it would mean death for anyone that was hit with it.

 

[BigRed389]

That was part of the discussion as well, if a person is wearing heavy clothing you will have an issue.

The proper weapon/round for home defense is more complicated when you live in a place with shared walls, and laws are different state to state. What I would do if I moved to a new state would be to attend a self defense class that covered the laws of that state and then from what I learned would choose a weapon and ammunition that I would feel comfortable using as well as be able to explain my reasoning in court if the need should arise.

There is a new type of round out, I forget the name but maybe someone here knows, when it impacts the person it essentially shreds/bores/destroys any tissue it comes in contact with, much more than a typical hollow point round, when I read about what this round did my thought was it went beyond a round that could be considered stopping the threat, I am pretty sure it would mean death for anyone that was hit with it.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/80211/a-new-bullet-has-been-invented-this-is-what-it-looks-like
This thing? Gotta admit it "looks" scary. Still skeptical it offers anything a good JHP doesn't.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

http://www.policymic.com/articles/80211/a-new-bullet-has-been-invented-this-is-what-it-looks-like
This thing? Gotta admit it "looks" scary. Still skeptical it offers anything a good JHP doesn't.

That is it, the article I saw was more in-depth, I think the defense "I didn't want to kill the person only stop the threat" would be a bit harder if this round was used from what I have read.

I agree I think a good JHP would do just fine.

 

[Rocketman]

There is a whole lot of great info at this link. Some of it flies against conventional internet wisdom like many times a JHP will act like a FMJ when plugged with sheet rock and or denim. Most of it's based on actual research not on internet ledgends that have been passed down over the years from computer to computer . It's packed with interesting reading.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/#9mm