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Future Vertical Lift

RoarkJr.

Well-Known Member
Interested in this...looks like USMC is looking at Attack Utility Replacement Aircraft (AURA) and is piggybacking (sorry) off the army.


Anywhere I can read more about this or does anyone have any detail on how this is going? Looks like 2020 on is a good time to be helo's/tilt with the new trainer coming online and development of a future H-1 replacement happening.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
All those tilt-rotors are going to require a bigger boat!
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Interested in this...looks like USMC is looking at Attack Utility Replacement Aircraft (AURA) and is piggybacking (sorry) off the army.


Anywhere I can read more about this or does anyone have any detail on how this is going? Looks like 2020 on is a good time to be helo's/tilt with the new trainer coming online and development of a future H-1 replacement happening.
FVL seems to have become an umbrella program for all the services who are looking to replace their H-60s and H-1s in the coming decade or so. As the FVL program has gone on it seems like each service has developed or branched off their own specific requirements that include FARA (new Kiowa take 3?), AURA (h-1 replacement), and others (USN 60 replacement). The Defiant and V-280 are technology demonstrators for FVL that will result in a eventual replacement for USA 60s.
 

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None

Not to thread jack, but has anyone else seen this? Seems like the Army wants an upgraded version of the V22 Osprey?
Maybe this will result in helicopters/tilt rotors that don't look like they are build out of Legos or tinker toys, with all kinds of stuff bolted on. I loved flying the Seahawk, but holy f$%^, all that stuff (radar, ESM, hoists, datalink, FLIR, mirrors, etc...) bolted on never helped in range, speed or efficiency.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Maybe this will result in helicopters/tilt rotors that don't look like they are build out of Legos or tinker toys, with all kinds of stuff bolted on. I loved flying the Seahawk, but holy f$%^, all that stuff (radar, ESM, hoists, datalink, FLIR, mirrors, etc...) bolted on never helped in range, speed or efficiency.
I think half the reason that stuff can be big clunky boxes on helos is that they don't go fast enough for it to matter so why put the time, money, and effort into unnecessary aesthetics? Now if you start going faster then that stuff really starts to matter.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I think half the reason that stuff can be big clunky boxes on helos is that they don't go fast enough for it to matter so why put the time, money, and effort into unnecessary aesthetics? Now if you start going faster then that stuff really starts to matter.

It also doesn't help that the boxes are designed 10+ years before they are fielded.
 

Hotdogs

I don’t care if I hurt your feelings
pilot
I think half the reason that stuff can be big clunky boxes on helos is that they don't go fast enough for it to matter so why put the time, money, and effort into unnecessary aesthetics? Now if you start going faster then that stuff really starts to matter.

...or the Navy and Marines could think more than 5 years in the future and program requirements correctly. Instead of strapping shit on as the program evolves. Most Navy and Marine helicopters look like Frankenstein right before they're put into the boneyard. A good comparison is the AH-64E block upgrade program. The Army chose to do Iterative upgrades that provided a wholistic performance review/upgrade vice piecemealing parts onto an aircraft that slowly degraded capability and performance over time without a balance in aerodynamic/engine performance.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
I think half the reason that stuff can be big clunky boxes on helos is that they don't go fast enough for it to matter so why put the time, money, and effort into unnecessary aesthetics? Now if you start going faster then that stuff really starts to matter.
Aesthetically I always thought this strap down attachment was rather bad...
30739
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
^^^ The KFOR traffic copter. Our tenth caller this morning wins armed overwatch on their daily commute and a parking spot of their choice- if someone's car is in your spot then we'll blow it up for you! Now let's get to those phone lines. First caller, you're live on KFOR!
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
...or the Navy and Marines could think more than 5 years in the future and program requirements correctly. Instead of strapping shit on as the program evolves. Most Navy and Marine helicopters look like Frankenstein right before they're put into the boneyard. A good comparison is the AH-64E block upgrade program. The Army chose to do Iterative upgrades that provided a wholistic performance review/upgrade vice piecemealing parts onto an aircraft that slowly degraded capability and performance over time without a balance in aerodynamic/engine performance.
Agreed. But doesn't change the fact that most helos don't go fast enough to make worrying about aesthetics matter. But your point about adding weight without adding engine performance is a good one. The aerodynamics may not matter, but the build up of weight sure does. As does power usage and thermal issues. (SWAP-C)
 

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
So you say it doesn't matter, yet in our -10 manual there are all sorts of adjustments for the different things attached, glued to, hanging off of or protruding from our UH-60Ms or HH-60Ms. And I don't just mean big fuel tanks and wings. There are adjustments for everything (exhausts type, ALQ-144 mount, antennas, etc..). And it's not just drag. It's so bad that our FCCs have to adjust stabilator programming for adding wings and tanks. 10% drag is 10% drag. Granted, 10% of 193 kts isn't as much as 10% of 600 kts, but it is still 10%. As long as we continue to think that it doesn't matter, we won't ever have aircraft where it really matters...until FVL. Now maybe it will start to matter.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
So you say it doesn't matter, yet in our -10 manual there are all sorts of adjustments for the different things attached, glued to, hanging off of or protruding from our UH-60Ms or HH-60Ms. And I don't just mean big fuel tanks and wings. There are adjustments for everything (exhausts type, ALQ-144 mount, antennas, etc..). And it's not just drag. It's so bad that our FCCs have to adjust stabilator programming for adding wings and tanks. 10% drag is 10% drag. Granted, 10% of 193 kts isn't as much as 10% of 600 kts, but it is still 10%. As long as we continue to think that it doesn't matter, we won't ever have aircraft where it really matters...until FVL. Now maybe it will start to matter.
Maybe it's different in the 60M but while the 60R/S manuals had drag adjustments as well the weight and impact to Pr vs Pa always seemed to be the biggest factor. Or put another way a 60R with lumps and bumps and a slick 60S with the same GW had a very similar max airspeed. A 60S with the AMCM CSTRS on I think was airspeed or Q limited.

I can also see a lot of those things having a much larger impact on CG due to weight distribution.

My point is that the boxes do have impact but it's probably not so much drag but other dominant factors such as GW, CG, control limits changing, airflow distortion, etc.

If you ask me what's the one thing that the airframes of the future need an excess amount of besides power it's cooling. As the various boxes get more capable that translates into hotter boxes that will need ways to transfer the heat. And things that work at FL370 for a big wing don't work as well for rotorcraft that spend most of their time closer to the surface.
 
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