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Flying Faulty Jumbo Across Atlantic Saves BA £100,000

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Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1499342,00.html

Flying Faulty Jumbo Across Atlantic Saves BA £100,000

By Ben Webster

Turning back after engine failure would have left airline liable to pay out for delays under new rules on compensation

A BRITISH AIRWAYS jumbo jet carrying 351 passengers was forced to make an emergency landing after an 11-hour transatlantic flight with a failed engine.

The fault occurred on take-off from Los Angeles but the pilot declined all opportunities to land in the US and instead continued on three engines for 5,000 miles to Britain.

The incident happened three days after a European regulation came into force requiring airlines to compensate passengers for long delays or cancellations. Under the new rules, if the pilot had returned to Los Angeles, BA would have been facing a compensation bill of more than £100,000.

Balpa, the British Air Line Pilots’ Association, gave warning last night that the regulation could result in pilots being pressured into taking greater risks for commercial reasons.

The regulation requires airlines to refund passengers the full cost of their tickets as well as flying them home if a delay lasts longer than five hours. Passengers must also be put up in hotels if the delay continues overnight.

The BA flight departed at 8.45pm on Saturday and the airline admitted that the delay would have been well over five hours if it had returned to Los Angeles.

BA initially claimed that the engine had failed an hour into the flight. But the airline admitted yesterday that the problem had occurred a few seconds after take-off when the Boeing 747 was only 100ft above the ground.

Air traffic controllers at Los Angeles spotted streams of sparks shooting from the engine and immediately radioed the pilot. He attempted to throttle the engine back but was forced to shut it down after it continued to overheat. The plane then began circling over the Pacific while the pilot contacted BA’s control centre in London to discuss what to do. They decided the flight should continue to London even though it would burn more fuel on just three engines.

The Boeing 747 was unable to climb to its cruising altitude of 36,000ft and had to cross the Atlantic at 29,000ft, where the engines perform less efficiently and the tailwinds are less favourable. The unbalanced thrust also meant the pilot had to apply more rudder, causing extra drag.

The pilot realised as he flew over the Atlantic that he was running out of fuel and would not make it to Heathrow. He requested an emergency landing at Manchester and was met by four fire engines and thirty firefighters on the runway.

Philip Baum, an aviation security specialist on board the flight with his wife and three daughters, said he had heard two loud bangs shortly after take-off. “The pilot came on to say we had lost an engine and he was negotiating about whether or not we should land back at Los Angeles.

“A few minutes later, I was amazed to see from the map on the TV screen that we were flying eastwards towards Britain. I would be disgusted if the issue of compensation had any bearing on the decision.”

BA said financial concerns had played no part in the decision. Captain Doug Brown, the senior manager of BA’s 747 fleet, said the only consideration had been “what was best for passengers”.

“The plane is as safe on three engines as on four and it can fly on two. It was really a customer service issue, not a safety issue. The options would have been limited for passengers [if the plane had returned to Los Angeles].” He said the pilot would have had to dump more than 100 tonnes of fuel before landing at Los Angeles. “The authorities would have had words to say about that.”

Captain Brown said pilots always took the final decision on any safety issue and would never choose to put themselves at risk. “Even without 350 passengers behind you, you are always going to be concerned about your own neck.”

But David Learmount, safety editor of Flight International, said: “It was a very odd decision to continue to London. Even if the pilot didn’t want to dump so much fuel, he could have diverted to Chicago.

“You are not as safe on three engines as you are on four and I suspect that, given the choice, most passengers would have opted to return to LA.”

Some airlines are trying to avoid paying compensation for delays involving technical failures of an aircraft. They are citing a clause in the regulation which excludes delays “caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken”.

But the Air Transport Users Council, which advises passengers on how to obtain their rights, said airlines would still be liable in cases involving engine failure because the cause was likely to be poor maintenance. Simon Evans, its chief executive, admitted that the regulation could lead to airlines taking greater risks. “We recognise there is a possibility that an airline might take a decision to fly in order to avoid paying compensation.”

Captain Mervyn Granshaw, Balpa’s chairman, said: “The EU regulation is poorly drafted and increases the pressure on pilots to consider commercial issues when making judgments in marginal safety situations.”
 

AirRyan

Registered User
I wouldn't have crossed the pond on just three, but if it happend upon rotation there is usually a reason why the engine went out and can be a good indication that others may as well - should have turned around and landed at original departure airport within 1 hour after takeoff or at least stopped in JFK and had it repaired or looked at. Going that far on three engines means a lot less economy and I wouldn't have pushed it with 350+ souls to account for.
 

beau

Registered User
Dumbest Pilot Ever!!! Hmm what is the fuel equation for flying on three engines instead of four? that has got to be a hell of a lot of drag. If he diverted he still would not dare to try and takeoff with three engines....that is friggin ludicrous! I guess Murphy didnt take a ride on this flight thank god or we would be talking about another 747 crash. I guess the the reason for the crossing(safety first????hell no!) was that even if there was a delay and switch in planes they would still pay the fine to the passengers......can you say WOW.

Hmm can someone please point out the first link on the error chain??? its a toughy!
 
And I'd always heard BA was one of the "safe" or "good" airlines.

I wonder if our resident 747 driver, A4s could give us his opinion on this?
 

sirenia

Sub Nuke's Wife
I've flown BA all my life pretty much after Pan Am and Delta and I'd hate to think that this is how they handle an engine failure.

I'd like to see what A4sForever has to say about this.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Patmack18 said:
The almighty dollar wins again... THAT BEING SAID... remember this is the media reporting on this, and I have a feeling there's a lot we don't know to the story. I know ferrying aircraft on less than all engines is completely safe, and done all the time. DC-10's, MD-11's, 727, 707, 747, etc, all can be ferried with fewer than all blowers...

I can almost guarantee you the flight managment computer onboard told him exactly how much fuel he would need, and it was an educated desicion (albeit a questionable one from the given info). Had he decided to go back to LAX, he still would've had to climb, trouble shoot, and dump gas. When I went through my 737 type course, nothing was done fast. An engine failure after take off still meant climbing, cleaning up, and leveling off, then reading off the checklist.
Yes engine out ferries are done on 3 and 4 engine aircraft, but usually without the pax.....

I also agree that the FMS would tell him the fuel, but that would be based on the current winds, temps, etc for where he was at the time. Probably a big difference between LAX, JFK, Atlantic and European winds. And how often is the forecast right?

While on the surface it seems that the right thing to do would be to go with the safest option and return to LAX (or at least land in the U.S.), I have heard of 747s doing this sort of thing in the past. Hopefully A4s will chime in as the resident 747 guru.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
aa1a2ca0f3ef1c.jpg
I have lost sooooo much face ... I know nothing
--- I lied to all of you. I do not know how to fly 747's ...


box1016.jpg
This is where I got my Wings ... so sorry.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Physicx said:
I want those sugar pops.What year is that?
1956 , same year as Be-Bop-A-Lula, by Gene Vincent -- same year as Around the World in 80 Days won best picture -- if that helps ... :)
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
... engine out ferries are done on 3 and 4 engine aircraft, but usually without the pax.....
NEVER with passengers -- unless it's the last flight out of downtown Harare, Zimbabwe for the next two weeks.

Defense_Rorke_s_Drift_FC.jpg
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
(edit: tried to correct spelling and dumped the whole thing -- Thank God for copy/paste, huh?)
DISCLAIMER: I ALWAYS TRY NOT TO SECOND GUESS A FELLOW AVIATOR FOR WHAT HE DID -- ESPECIALLY IF I DID NOT SIT IN HIS COCKPIT NOR WALK IN HIS SHOES -- I DETEST "READY-ROOM COMMANDOS " On any given day --- we each are capable of being a Blue Angel or a plumber -- it all depends what day your number comes up.

That said .... there are SO many things going on here --- it is difficult to get your head around them all. For the sake of discussion -- let's say the report is factually correct -- if not, hit the "DELETE" button.

Soooo .... You want the short answer or the long one? O.K., you'll get 'em both:
*****************************************************

I have been in this same situation before -- I handled it -- dumped and landed -- went to the hotel, had a nice dinner with the crew during our "debrief" -- and completed the flight the next day with the thank-you's of many passengers and all my crew. An acquaintance (747 Captain) was also in this situation -- he went LAX - NRT and was later investigated by the FAA for his efforts when other things went wrong (and they ALWAYS will). As a management VP was involved in the "decision making process" , the "investigation" quietly faded away ..... my pilot acquaintance was derided by his peers for "going along" with what most pilots universally SHOULD have rejected on SAFETY AND OPERATIONAL grounds. As a result, the policy is now pretty clear at my airline --- VP's (don't get excited, P-3 drivers -- not you) don't fly emergency/abnormal procedures from the office-- the crew does from the cockpit.

..... time for an oversimplified judgement about "management pilots"?? I have been one. Some of you have referenced them in the past as a source or justification for this or that --- many management "pilots" (especially senior ones) are in their position because they drink the company Kool-Aid, are company men, and are "yes-men". Too harsh? I didn't say they weren't competent -- just that some (many?) have sold their pilot's soul for office space , $$$$, and "perks" --- BELIEVE IT !! Remember -- it's always about POWER and MONEY ... or sometimes MONEY and POWER, just depends ....

"Captain Doug Brown, the senior manager of BA’s 747 fleet" represents exactly what I am talking about ... make no mistake: to say "the only consideration had been what was best for passengers” is a complete LIE --- it was ALL ABOUT MONEY. To say : “The plane is as safe on three engines as on four and it can fly on two. It was really a customer service issue, not a safety issue" ... is the wisdom of an idiot (and a company man, remember) -- but not someone whose counsel you should trust.

With an engine failure, and no fire or severe damage, you are to land as "SOON AS IS PRACTICABLE" ... not "as soon as is financially desireable". Landing with an emergency/abnormal condition is ultimately the Captain's decision with the assistance (if appropriate and if available) of operations. It is not within the jurisdiction of marketing or finance. It would have cost Brit Air big bucks if they had dumped and returned. But "that's the breaks of Naval Air ... " to quote an old familiar phrase. There is simply no justification for taking an aircraft on a TransPac or TransLant or over the Pole with less than all engines operating normally -- if there are satisfactory landing fields available. Unless there's a war on, of course .... :icon_wink

The whole thing boiled down to $$$$, or ££££ , if you will. BA sacrified passenger, crew and aircraft safety for money, pure and simple. And guess what --- he ran out of fuel and had to divert into Manchester -- thus becoming a chump instead of a champ -- which he would have been had he returned to LAX. This is what happens when $$$$, managers, politicians, and bureacracies try to fly airplanes. And this is why competent airline pilots deserve the $$$$ they get -- they earn it. In this case, it didn't happen -- to wit: the BA Captain screwed up and caved into management, thereby placing safety, airmanship, and judgement in second place(s) by deferring to management and the corporate bottom line. I suspect he knew better, he just didn't DO IT !! :)

£100,000 ??? What do you suppose it might have cost BA if they had lost the aircraft over the pond?

WHEN FLYING : DO THE RIGHT THING --- YOU WILL KNOW WHAT IT IS --- THE HARD PART SOMETIMES IS -- DOING IT !!!

northwest-B747-nrt061603-01.jpg
 
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