Doing research - after action rescue/survival reports

[HAL Pilot]

thread resurrection ............

It's been a while and I can easily geek out on this stuff. Mostly it's that I'm always intrigued by clever gear. Please critique:

I just "finished" (truthfully, these things are always a work in progress lol) building this kit. I've been through several iterations of vest setups (such as a tactical sort of chest rig with molle pouches) in the intervening years (!) lol............

This is fucking ridiculous.

 

[danpass]

I realize my audience and how easily this could look I like overkill.

Here is my reasoning:

Average pickup time for military:
* 76% picked up in 90 minutes or less.

source:
Page 29, http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a081153.pdf

How relevant is a 1980 survey/conference/symposium today? This is what I could find.

(There’s also a Rand report but that deals more with time getting to aircrews downed in combat.)

The other factor I’ve considered is that mil aircraft seem to fly as a pair or more. This is also mentioned in the survey; “... being observed by others was the prime means used to alert ...”

Average pickup time for general aviation:
* IFR: 13h 6m
* VFR: 37h 18m
* No flight plan: 42h 24m

source: https://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/airman_education/topics_of_interest/search_rescue/

Traveling as a solo aircraft appears to add time to a downed situation.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Traveling as a solo aircraft appears to add time to a downed situation.

 

[danpass]

lol, alright, alright.

I had thought perhaps, in this day of mature satellite networks, that mil aircraft had tracking systems beyond the usual transponder, and that, maybe, in the mil world, being single-ship wasn't as big a factor as before.

 

[Pags]

lol, alright, alright.

I had thought perhaps, in this day of mature satellite networks, that mil aircraft had tracking systems beyond the usual transponder, and that, maybe, in the mil world, being single-ship wasn't as big a factor as before.

Military aircraft are also flown against a flight schedule and are more closely tracked by various levels of management. No magic big brother satellites, just an expectation that Island Rat 65 took off at 0800 and is scheduled to be back at 1000 to turn the airplane over the next crew. If Island Rat 65 doesn't show up or get in comms within a few minutes of 1000 then people are going to start to get concerned that something is up and the SDO's day just went from bad (it's never a good day if you're the SDO) to worse. Also, the military aircraft's route is probably much more widely known by people who can initiate a response so SAR knows where to start looking.

It will likely take a lot longer for Joe Sixpack's wife to realize he wasn't home when he said he was going to be.

You want to be found quickly? Have a published plan and stick to it temporally and geographically.

 

[ChuckMK23]

lol, alright, alright.

I had thought perhaps, in this day of mature satellite networks, that mil aircraft had tracking systems beyond the usual transponder, and that, maybe, in the mil world, being single-ship wasn't as big a factor as before.

The PRC-149 that all aircrew carry in their vest has instant satellite based tracking capability down to a few meters I think. We have Emergency Locator Transmitters in civilian aircraft that serve the same function - with regional SAR centers being alerted in minutes and seconds upon activation. In an air campaign, strike crews have a more secure piece of gear that locates aircrew down to a few square meters for single pass recovery by a rescue asset. We dont leave aircrew behind in a combat strike scenario.

 

[Griz882]

Military aircraft are also flown against a flight schedule and are more closely tracked by various levels of management. No magic big brother satellites, just an expectation that Island Rat 65 took off at 0800 and is scheduled to be back at 1000 to turn the airplane over the next crew. If Island Rat 65 doesn't show up or get in comms within a few minutes of 1000 then people are going to start to get concerned that something is up and the SDO's day just went from bad (it's never a good day if you're the SDO) to worse. Also, the military aircraft's route is probably much more widely known by people who can initiate a response so SAR knows where to start looking.

It will likely take a lot longer for Joe Sixpack's wife to realize he wasn't home when he said he was going to be.

You want to be found quickly? Have a published plan and stick to it temporally and geographically.

Not exactly. In GA if you file a flight plan no one will bother looking for you for a number of hours. If you use flight following they will come looking for you within 30 minutes. A flight plan is just a self-reported line on a map. Bad winds, storm avoidance, and other things might push you off your route and basically erase your plan entirely. If you are leaving the bean patch you should ask for flight following. Also, buy a PLB (NOT SPOT, their service is terrible) and an "electric flare." If all else fails just walk to the nearest 7/11 and ask to use their phone.

 

[Gatordev]

While I'm not advocating for or against your vest setup, what you have on you will depend on where you fly. While HAL was knocking your specific setup, having some sort of either ditch bag or wearable setup can be helpful in more rugged terrain. My dad wears a simple fishing vest with a couple of items on it and then also has a ditch bag, but he flies out west, and in winter, where recovery can take a long time. I know when I've flown with him in winter, I've looked down when going over a mountain pass and wondered where exactly we'd go, assuming we survived the landing.

But bottom line, the two biggest things that will get you recovered alive anywhere are a first-aid kit (and the knowledge on how to use it) and a PLB. The PLB lets you move and still be found. I wouldn't count on the ELT in your airplane, but the PLB on your person is money.

 

[danpass]

Military aircraft are also flown against a flight schedule and are more closely tracked by various levels of management. No magic big brother satellites, just an expectation that Island Rat 65 took off at 0800 and is scheduled to be back at 1000 to turn the airplane over the next crew. If Island Rat 65 doesn't show up or get in comms within a few minutes of 1000 then people are going to start to get concerned that something is up and the SDO's day just went from bad (it's never a good day if you're the SDO) to worse. Also, the military aircraft's route is probably much more widely known by people who can initiate a response so SAR knows where to start looking.

It will likely take a lot longer for Joe Sixpack's wife to realize he wasn't home when he said he was going to be.

You want to be found quickly? Have a published plan and stick to it temporally and geographically.

Not exactly. In GA if you file a flight plan no one will bother looking for you for a number of hours. If you use flight following they will come looking for you within 30 minutes. A flight plan is just a self-reported line on a map. Bad winds, storm avoidance, and other things might push you off your route and basically erase your plan entirely. If you are leaving the bean patch you should ask for flight following. Also, buy a PLB (NOT SPOT, their service is terrible) and an "electric flare." If all else fails just walk to the nearest 7/11 and ask to use their phone.

The FAA paper talks about that, the Uncertainty factor:
"Because of the high rate of false alarms, this phase is designed to determine if an aircraft is really missing or if a crew neglected to close their flight plan. If the PRECOM comes up negative, then the next phase is activated."

I did still wonder though why, with IFR plan in GA, it still went out to 13 hours.

I can understand with VFR but it still seems weird that VFR, even with a flight plan, added an entire 24hrs to the time. While VFR, no flight plan added 'only' 7 hrs to that time.

The PRC-149 that all aircrew carry in their vest has instant satellite based tracking capability down to a few meters I think. We have Emergency Locator Transmitters in civilian aircraft that serve the same function - with regional SAR centers being alerted in minutes and seconds upon activation. In an air campaign, strike crews have a more secure piece of gear that locates aircrew down to a few square meters for single pass recovery by a rescue asset. We dont leave aircrew behind in a combat strike scenario.

While I'm not advocating for or against your vest setup, what you have on you will depend on where you fly. While HAL was knocking your specific setup, having some sort of either ditch bag or wearable setup can be helpful in more rugged terrain. My dad wears a simple fishing vest with a couple of items on it and then also has a ditch bag, but he flies out west, and in winter, where recovery can take a long time. I know when I've flown with him in winter, I've looked down when going over a mountain pass and wondered where exactly we'd go, assuming we survived the landing.

But bottom line, the two biggest things that will get you recovered alive anywhere are a first-aid kit (and the knowledge on how to use it) and a PLB. The PLB lets you move and still be found. I wouldn't count on the ELT in your airplane, but the PLB on your person is money.

I bought my PLB 5 years ago (just had the battery changed) as THE form of beacon to have on hand. Too many stories of ELT failure (specific source NASA ELT report talking about 70% failure, 'non-activation rate' (and 97% false alarm).

 

[Gatordev]

I did still wonder though why, with IFR plan in GA, it still went out to 13 hours.

I can understand with VFR but it still seems weird that VFR, even with a flight plan, added an entire 24hrs to the time. While VFR, no flight plan added 'only' 7 hrs to that time.

Just because someone knows you're down doesn't mean they can get to you. My guess is that it's measuring actual recovery time, not notification time. If you're in a rural area, someone has to either drive to the location, which may take hours depending on how remote the crash site is, or an aircraft is dispatched. As you mentioned, the ELT isn't the most reliable item, so just because a search team may have a rough datum, it will still take time to localize, especially in dense wooded areas.

I always had the idea in the back of my head that if I went down in N. FL at night, I was probably spending the night until day break, but if I went down in the water (and survived), pickup would probably be much quicker. Even with a precise position, an airborne unit has to actually be able to see you, and then has to be able to either land near by to pick you up (assuming you can get there) or try and get ground units, which again, assumes there's easy access.

 

[picklesuit]

Just because someone knows you're down doesn't mean they can get to you.

I always had the idea in the back of my head that if I went down in N. FL I was going to be living scenes from Deliverance, but if I went down in the water (and survived), pickup would probably be much quicker.

FIFY

 

[Gatordev]

Meh. I now work in and interact with the good people of N. Central FL, especially at PR events. I have yet to run into any Wrong Turn type beings. Although I also haven't run into any Eliza Dushku look alikes, either.

 

[RobLyman]

Meh. I now work in and interact with the good people of N. Central FL, especially at PR events. I have yet to run into any Wrong Turn type beings. Although I also haven't run into any Eliza Dushku look alikes, either.

I was disappointed. I thought you meant, "This river don't go to Aintry. You done taken a wrong turn."

All of the survival gear and PLB are great, but let's not forget that water and training is by far the most important. Last summer we had a soldier in the BLC land nav course (training was minimal) with inadequate water die in about 12 hours in the middle of the summer in NE FL. Had he stayed put and drank water, stayed awake/alert until he heard aircraft overhead, and then moved into the open, he would be alive.

 

[Gatordev]

Very true. Although I just assumed having water was a given.

 

[danpass]

Any recommended courses? (that a civvie could attend)

I took one this past summer that involved pool time (water-up-the-nose inverted chair setup) and time in the Gulf, deploying the raft, in/out, shooting flares, real fun in those 4-6ft rollers lol.
but I'm always open to more.