Deja Vu - the Mega oft-repeated question: Differences Between USMC and Naval Aviation

[davidsin]

Any USMC NFOs out there that can help me gain a better understanding of your job duties? What do you do exactly? Also, can you make a transition to pilot later on after a PRK surgery if you passed the test for pilot?

I hear that NFOs can pilot choppers is this true? Please clarify. Any input will help.

Semper Fi Do or Die Gung Ho GUng Ho!!

 

[phrogdriver]

Hercs rule the roost on flt time. When you fly 6 hours at a pop, it happens.

Helos--expect 250/yr, about 200 in garrison, 300 during a deployment year.

Jet pilots tend to get a little less, in general, with the Harrier guys getting the short end of the stick a lot. That bird goes down like a drunk girl on prom night. You see the entire AV-8 fleet grounded for months at a time.

If you like rolling out of a tent to go fly, fly helos. I've spent a month in Kandahar living in a GP tent and a month in Macedonia sleeping in a carport. Everyone else is either off a ship (F-18s on a CV, AV-8s off a LHD/LHA) or out of a major air base (the only exception being the F-18s flying out of the FSU). The Harrier "street fighter" bit is a little overblown. They flew out of Kandahar, but only overnight for a dog-and-pony--they can land on short fields, but their maintenance requirements are daunting, not to mention the bird is a FOD vacuum. One they touched down in Afghanistan, they were towed to the line, so as not to FOD the engines.




Phrogs phorever

 

[marti]

phrogdriver, I was wondering if you would comment a little more on what it's like to be a 46 pilot. When I debate whether or not to fly Navy or Marines plateform is the biggest issue. The only thing the Marines fly that I am unsure about liking is the 46. Any insight you can give to this community and what it's like to do your job both at home and on deployment would be appreciated.

Do you know if and when the V-22 is supposed to come fully online?

 

[phrogdriver]

Well, if your choice is between Navy and Marines, remember that the Navy uses 46s, too, and theirs are even older.

The 46 gets a bum rap a lot of the time. The Cobras look cool and shoot a lot; the 53s are huge, powerful, and fairly new; the Hueys, well the Hueys get the bad rep too, so I sympathize with them. Besides, they have to hang out with the Cobra types--no sense of humor, those guys!

It comes down to mission. The basic 46 mission, assault support, is really one of the best out there, if you're into the whole Marine thing. Inserting troops in the zone, on time. There's the classic vertical envelopment, but also the more exotic FAST roping, recon patrol inserts, para ops, SPIE rigs, etc, etc. Everyone else, including the Cobras, are flying above the action--you're flying right into it, with 2 aircrew manning .50 cals.

53s do assault support as well, of course. Their heavy-lift capabilities lend more to materiel support than troop lift. They especially do a lot of external lifts. I will say that their long range and excess power has made them one of the platforms of choice when it comes to long-range raids and inserts, such as the seizure of Camp Rhino in Afghanistan. At first, people doubted the 46's ability to operate in the high altitudes of Afghanistan, but once we were brought in, phrogs were a key part of the package, and excuted raids and logistics support in country.

If you're a lifer and know it, 46 squadrons are the base element that the air combat element (ACE) of the MEU is built around. That means that a CH-46 squadron CO is the leader of the aviation unit most likely to go in harm's way. That's not a bad deal, and a good way to end up a MEU CO eventually. Both of my MEU COs were former 46 squadron COs.

I believe the phrog mission can't be beat. It certainly beats the mission of any of the Navy helos, hunting for submarines and drilling circles in the sky waiting for someone to crash. My only concern is the future of the 46 with the recurring delays in the replacement program, the V-22. Now the 46 has to stick around to 2017 or perhaps longer. In the meantime, we're getting new engines and some assorted doo-dads, but they are all interim fixes. I'm love the phrog now, but I'm kind of worried about being on the "C team" if I'm still flying it come 2014 or so.

So, it's a mixed bag, but what in life isn't? There's nothing cooler than touching down at night, dropping the ramp, and having 15 Marines rush out. Everyone else out there is supporting YOU, because you are the main effort.

Phrogs phorever

 

[splendid_splinter]

hey phrog.. do you know why we are upgrading the ancient uh-1 frame instead of using the h-60 frame? also, have the marines ever given consideration to the uh-64 frame. i had heard it had something to do with the skids being more condusive to the mission, but i can't really rationalize that because 46's and 53's use wheels on amphib decks and rough lz's...

 

[phrogdriver]

The Marines primarily went with the UH-1Y because of the money aspect. It's cheaper to rebuild the old UH-1Ns. Ironically, it would have been cheaper for the DOD to build more 60s and get the bulk discount, but since the savings wouldn't be passed on to the USMC, that wasn't a factor. Also, there a parts commonality issue--once the UH-1Y/AH-1Z transition is done, 90% of the components will the common between the 2 aircraft. That should make supply a lot simpler. Lastly, since a 60 can lift more than a phrog, there would be mission overlap between the medium lift and utility communities.

I think you mean the AH-64 Apache, vice UH-64. Partly the reason is money, partly mission. Wheels actually help aboard ship by making it easier to tow aircraft on the flight deck. First, the Apache would require navalization--rust proofing, a rotor brake, and folding rotors. I don't know how much that would cost, but I'm sure it's a factor. Also, the Marines and Army employ helicopters differently, and the Cobra and Apache differ accordingly. The
Army sees the Apache as a flying tank killer. They rely a lot on firing Hellfire, TOW, etc. from a hover hold. They rarely, if ever, use NVGs. They rely on their FLIR (that ball on the nose) slaved to the helmet and displayed on the reticle. It's a good system, but not suited to Marine tactics. The FLIR doesn't slew very fast. Cobras do attached escorts of assault helos, Apaches don't. Cobras do diving gun attacks, Apaches rarely do.

The AH-64 is not the end-all-be-all of attack helos. It's greatest value added is with the datalinks it shares with command and other Apaches. The Marines don't do as much datalinking, so it's not quite as advantageous.

Phrogs phorever

 

[splendid_splinter]

i've learned more about assault support in three posts than i did in 6 months of TBS...

 

[airpower009]

USMC or Navy NFO??

Would it be a challenge to make it 20 years in the Corps as an NFO due to the upcoming changes in USMC aviation (i.e. Prowler to Growler, F/A-18 to F-35)?? How about the Navy?

Does anyone know what the basic pipeline looks like for USMC NFOs? How about Navy NFOs?

Finally, it seems like there aren't many differences between Navy and USMC NFO life. Is this true?

Thanks

 

[pourts]

I am only gonna stick my neck out and answer this because nobody else has yet, and I just went to a dinner where a general talked about this.

It depends how old you are, and when you will commission. Short answer is that by 2018 or so (don't remember exact dates, I'm not SNFO) the USMC will no longer have aircraft that need NFOs, and there are no plans as of yet to change that. We won't be getting Growlers and the JSF will not be developed with a 2 seat version. That seemed pretty clear from both a 2 star that's involved in aviation and an 0-6 NFO within the past 4 months who talked to us. They were unclear about what would happen to existing NFO's once the planes were gone.

If I were you I would go Navy if all you have ever wanted to be in life is an NFO. If you want to crawl in the mud and learn infantry stuff for 6 months before flying, and wear green silkies shorts then go Marines.

EDIT: But, the way procurement goes, anything could happen...

 

[sodajones]

I like my green silky shorts.

 

[phrogpilot73]

If I were you I would go Navy if all you have ever wanted to be in life is an NFO. If you want to crawl in the mud and learn infantry stuff for 6 months before flying, and possibly for a year + after a flying tour, and wear green silkies shorts then go Marines.

Fixed it for you. The fact that you can end up in an Infantry Battalion as a Marine NFO is not something you face in the Navy...

 

[JSF_Dreamer]

Navy vs. Marine Aviation

I've been reading through some of the thread on here about choosing navy or marines, but they're a few years old now. I've always known I was going to join the navy, but lately I've been thinking about the Marines as well. They are both great services and I'll be honored to serve in either. As a Navy pilot, I would be 3rd generation Navy, but first to go in as a commissioned officer. By my AW tag I think you can tell what the goal there is. However, I also know that that dream is going to be highly competitive and never a guarantee. So I was really considering if I would like to fly anything else in the Navy. I'll be happy flying anything, but I want to be in a fighter or attack class of jet or helo and the Marines seem to be the way to go for that.

Marines also have the JSF coming so going Marines wouldn't keep me from my true dream.

So, I guess my question is do you have any words of advice and what made you decide which way you wanted to go? Thanks ahead of time.

 

[gotta_fly]

I'll repeat the sage advice I've seen on hear or heard other places before:

If your dream is to fly a particular airframe or mission, you might want to reconsider what you'll go through a couple years down the road if you don't get to fly what you want -you could be in the wrong place. If your dream is to serve the country as a leader of Sailors and/or Marines, then you're in the right place. You should make sure that you understand that you'll be a Navy/ Marine Corps Officer first and a pilot second. If you're passion is strictly related to the JSF first, and you're looking for any route to the cockpit, you might be in the wrong place.

If you can be happy flying whatever the Navy asks you to (or not flying, if that's in the cards), then it's up to you to decide whether or not the culture of the Navy or the Marine Corps fits your personality better. Either way, good luck!

 

[picklesuit]

They are both good, you won't do wrong by joining either. Just remember to set the goal at finishing the phase of training you are in, not "I want the JSF one day"
While I sorely want to be CNO one day, my current goal is to finish advanced and get my wings. In primary it was to survive primary and get to advanced. I wanted P-3's but I knew that needs of the Navy would really dictate my future and the best thing I could do was worry about the flight tomorrow and let the scores fall where they may. You really have way less control over your military career than you want to admit to yerself.
I would look hard at quality of life in the military for your family (if that is yer kid on yer avatar) when you choose where you want to apply to get commissioned. You will spend more hours at home with your wife than in the plane, so make life as good as you can at home and the military side will be much easier.

 

[BACONATOR]

Trust me on this: It is FAR easier to live as a civilian, far removed from your dream airframe, than it is to be so close to it as a Navy/Marine aviator flying an airframe you didn't want. That's not to say most don't grow to love what they select. But if you will absolutely die inside not getting the JSF, a Jet, or even a tactical aircraft or helo, then you probably are going to hate life if you don't get what you want.

It's like having to see a chick every day that you're dying to be with but who hates you. (bring on the jokes...)