Boeing 747 "WHALE" -- a.k.a. The Whale's Tails (sic)

[A4sForever]

B747 "Whale": If anyone cares----but someday you might.

We do it both ways. Crab or wing down/top rudder. For me, it usually depends on the actual wind/WX conditions--how stong is the X-wind, am I IFR, if I just crossed the Pacific and am I tired, etc....... no one-size-fits-all.

Wing down/top rudder (WDTR)---that's my friend......until @ 50' AGL when you make your transition to landing flare----after touchdown put the aileron back in to keep the upwind wing from rising. You also have to steer with the rudders/nosewheel steering--obviously. In some limits X-wind conditions I could not really keep centerline with both working--just minimize the drift. You also must be very judicious with your ailerons to not skag #1 or #4 engine pod on the ground---some have, to their dismay.

Some guys--myself included--favor a slight, repeat: SLIGHT upwind lineup orientation if we are going to "crab" all the way down glideslope. Makes the workload a little less on approach. We are on the end of a long "moment arm" way out there in the B747 cockpit. If you visually put the cockpit on centerline in a crab---you will be offset on the downwind side when you take the crab out to line up in close.

Actually, a typical Whale high X-wind approach & landing might be:

Crab for the approach..
to WDTR in-close ..
to finesse the CL and flare..
to wings level touchdown..
to immediate aileron into the wind & steer with rudder/NWS..
to go to the hotel.........

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NOTE: I AM NOT A SPOKESMAN FOR ANY AIRLINE NOR ALPA ... ALL OPINIONS EXPRESSED ARE MY OWN AND ANY POSTS COPIED FOR OTHER SOURCES ARE ATTRIBUTED TO THEIR ORIGINAL AUTHORS ... A4s

 

[PropStop]

Hey A4's forever, does the 747 require a lot of pilot attention during flight and landing or is pretty automated? Is it a pilot's plane or just a huge pig? You ever fly into Kai Tak?

 

[A4sForever]

Automated? AUTOMATED ?! We don't need no steenkin' automation !!!

My 747? I WISH they were "automated"..... one fine day I intend to track down whoever started that rumor and deal with him severely.

I fly the 747-200, i.e., the Conestoga wagon of the Whale family. The automated portions of the flight guidance system have been upgraded many times, but it still started as 1950's technology. You can only polish a Whale so much; she's still a Whale. It requires a reasonable amount of attention in :sleep_125 :sleep_125 cruise :sleep_125 :sleep_125 , but that is why I have a F/O and S/O. For takeoff and landing evolutions---that's why they have :icon_smil ME :icon_smil --- !!! If you choose to fly an "automated" approach in the -200 with strong crosswinds, you only need to ask yourself one question:

Do you feel lucky? ... Well, do you?

I tried to get on the -400 --- you know: two man cockpit (sorry if I offended anyone, "flight deck"), cute little winglets, glass cockpit --- it's funny, they call that a "cockpit".... but never mind. Long story short: they would not let me on the 747-400 aircraft. Why, you ask? It was determined that I did not have a good enough education; did not come from a good enough family, and quite frankly, I was not good looking enough to fly the -400......

So I stayed on the "Classic" Whale. Plus, I could fly out of Seattle and Honolulu instead of -400 Detroit (pthooey!) --- and be senior, as well. Since the demise of the SEA and HNL 747 pilot bases, I now haul "trash" (mostly freighters) in/out of ANC. Nice place to visit during June, July, August and the steaks are great at the Club Paris.

The -200 Whale is my second favorite all-time A/C---it is truly a "pilot's airplane" . It is strong, has plenty of power, speed, and range -- just how I like my women. It handles like an airplane is supposed to--and you can even look "smart" in it on the ground---it's all relative, isn't it? I have flown her as much like a "fighter" as you can a transport-category A/C into Guam and Saipan and she made me look good. The 747 and I have been joined at the hip since 1983 -- I still love that old girl. I understand all her strengths, weaknesses -- (there aren't many) -- and I trust her. She has coughed up on me a few times, but always brought me, my crew, and my passengers home safely as long as I did my part.

Kai Tak? My middle name used to be Kai Tak. Please don't ask what it is now. I have been chased by many typhoons across the S. China Sea only to shoot the IGS to 13---and you're usually safer in the belly of the typhoon. Coincidently, the 13 IGS @ Kai Tak was my FIRST approach and landing as a 747 F/O in the Orient. About 400' above minimums with a bad overshooting X-wind on turn to final---certainly no "automation" there.

Of course, I was ordered to burn my uniform after landing..........

 

[webmaster]

FYI, I split this thread off from the old one, since it changed direction....

A4, great post.

 

[A4sForever]

Roger that....Webmaster-san

Thanks for the email info as well. Time for my beddy-bye .....now where did I put that warm milk & cookies.....?

Oyasuminasai

 

[Jaxs170]

Wow, it must be nice to have those 4 engines high enough off the deck to do WDTR, sure as hey wouldn't try that in my plane w/ a whole 18 inches between 2&3 and the deck.

And what fun are auto-pilot coupled approaches anyway, only makes the lazy pilot even lazier.

For the discussion of steam gages versus glass, I worry about having too much glass in there as pilots use it as a crutch way too much and when it doesn't work they freak out and don't know what to do. Something about rotate, gear up, 500' auto-pilot on and don't you dare touch it till we are on final at 500' AGL worries me a bit.

 

[PropStop]

A4Forever, thanks for the 747 info - very interesting read. I've always loved that plane - it is big, bad, and beautiful. No air bus will ever be half as cool as the 747, even if they were twice as big. It was the first of the true Jumbo jets.

If you're ever in SEA for a spell I'd love to meet with you and if possible tour your whale. I'm outta Whidbey right now.

if i ever make it up to ANC, i'll drop you a PM - we go there from time to time. I'm also from a place not far from there.

You ever see someone smack an outboard on that 13 approach?

 

[Flash]

Kai Tak? My middle name used to be Kai Tak.

Did you fly 747's for Korea Air out of there?

http://www.rapp.org/archives/2004/09/aircraft_crash_videos

The video is the second one on the list. I am not sure it works, I cannot check it at work. Does not encourage me to fly Korean Air .

Here are some photos, not all are from Kai Tak but it looks like most are, especially the 747's at high AOB.

http://www.aboutairline.com/realpix_eng.htm

 

[webmaster]

Flash, the video works. I don't think I will ever fly Korea Air now, lol.

 

[A4sForever]

And what fun are auto-pilot coupled approaches anyway, only makes the lazy pilot even lazier. .......

So you have me figured out ..... I am lazy, and lovin' it.

If able, I have frequently taken to using what passes for an "autoland" approach in the "Classic" Whale over the past couple of years. It always gets the attention of the younger pilots who have NEVER seen one --- except in the simulator. Yes, yes, yes, I may be lazy; but KNOWING that your -200 "Whale-Girl" can accomplish that evolution --- if set up properly --- is a big confidence builder for most gents.

I am a good stick and already know how to hand-fly the airplane and all the approaches --- so why not explore the outer edges of the 747-200 "system" envelope and see what else we might squeeze out of that 30+ year old package?

My rule: Safety first, laziness second.

Example: What do you do when you are REALLY tired, have just made a 10-12 hour crossing, are getting vertigo, it's your leg (obviously) and all you want is your Mommy to make all the bad stuff go away??? You COULD scream "STOPPPPPP IT !!!" Or you could set that big 747 up for an auto-land and seriously monitor it all the way in to 500', 400', 300', 200', whatever your personal criteria is...... and land it.

A couple years ago, I had a "Nugget" F/O and it was his leg going into Seoul/Inchon --- it was minimums when we took off from Narita. He was sweating the program BIG TIME as no one had got in there for a day. We were, literally, the first to shoot the approach and make it in @ 30 hours. While holding, I had him prepare for the autoland approach, and assuming we got "good" vectors from approach and got a "good" start --- always a primary requirement, whether you are flying T-34s or 747s --- we would shoot a "coupled" approach to minimums. Make the airplane do a lot of the work and we will "manage it" ... am I a cutting edge pilot, or what? 200' 1/2, no wind, a good setup from approach, and we did it.

He was pleased with himself, he learned something new about the capability of his aircraft, and he gained self-confidence in his ability to bring a Whale home in absolute minimums conditions.

Overall, not a bad trade-off for an old airplane and a lazy, older, slightly less bolder pilot, huh?

 

[A4sForever]

I've always loved that plane .....- it is big, bad, and beautiful. No air bus will ever be half as cool as the 747.....It was the first of the true Jumbo jets. ........... If you're ever in SEA for a spell I'd love to meet with you and if possible tour your whale. I'm outta Whidbey right now.

PropStop: You got it right on the 747 --- the "Frog-jets will never compare ... you will go far in this aviation world with your enlightened appreciation of one of Boeing's finest products. Or is it Boeing's finest? I cannot help you with a SEA Whale tour --- we don't fly passenger birds into SEATAC anymore with my second, all-time favorite aircraft. Just the erratic 747 Freighter which we now have 12 and 2 more coming ......

 

[A4sForever]

Kai Tak? My middle name used to be Kai Tak.

Did you fly 747's for Korea Air out of there?

FLASH: Thanks for the links.....I was looking for the first one --- had it on another computer and I was trying to find it with the data transfer to this new computer, blah, blah, blah..... Thanks. I did see the residue of an East/West/South (??) China Airlines aircraft in the water off 13.....overshot the runway.

Yes, my middle name used to be Kai Tak. Prior to that, it was Alice, but I took too much grief for that.
Edit: Sorry to be so 747 specific --- Maybe we should retitle this thread "747 Sea Stories" ??? I have a couple of good stories and some horror storiesleft in me.

 

[webmaster]

B747 "Whale": If anyone cares----but someday you might.

We do it both ways.

Yeah, I BET you do...

Once again, split this thread, and created a new forum for Commercial Aviation, since that has been a hot topic lately. A4 is the mod here, watch out, he might corner you with, there I was at FL380 with the autopilot on, stories...

 

[Fly Navy]

I've never had the pleasure of flying on a 747. I hope one day I will.

 

[Punk]

I've never had the pleasure of flying on a 747. I hope one day I will.

use to take them to Paris when I was young (flight benefits rock) on Pan Am, even got first class on a trip

first class on a Pan Am international flight in a 7474 was the way commercial aviation used to be, sophisiticated, romantic, etc, not the cheap, cookie cutter way all the airlines do it now

times have changed unfortunately