Should I stay or should I go? Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying And Love HSC.

[red_stang65]

Here’s a perfect demonstration of the problem. Brett327 laments that HSC pilots don’t hang their hat on SAR/PR as a primary mission area. Squorch sagely advises to reference COCOM priorities, and is SAR/PR there?

it really, really isn't.

Also, Hotdogs argues that HSC shouldn’t worry about some of the basic components of PR coverage (range/duration, and environment) because:

It’s almost as if there’s other assets that are more capable of doing that mission or something.

So Brett327, what to do? You say that the problem is the HSC commodores who’ve gotten the messaging and priorities wrong. But there are a lot more leaders above them in NAE who have done their fair share of adding to the confusion.

Squorch’s and Hotdogs’ demonstrate a sample of the arguments HSC has faced over the years from most of NAE (there’s someone better, you don’t need to worry about anything other than uncontested, short-range maritime, etc). Basically, I’m supposed to focus on what’s important (Brett says it’s SAR over SOF/CAS/ASUW). But, those aren’t any of the COCOM priorities (right Squorch?). Besides, there’s always somebody better at each of those missions than HSC (PR: RQS; CAS: HMLA; SOF: TF; VERTREP: contract Pumas; ASUW: HSM?). So, I guess that begs the question: what the heck’s the point of HSC? Should we just give it all up?

RedFive nails it perfectly:

No man, that's not it at all. It's because LEADERSHIPfailed them/us. This is 100% a LEADERSHIPproblem, or perhaps lackthereof.

And it’s not just Commodore level, it’s across multiple levels. Joint Doctrine requires USN to provide a number of capabilities and these are reflected in ROC/POEs. If the answer is for HSC to get rid of each mission set, then why isn’t that reflected in the ROC/POEs (which aren’t written by the Commodores)? Either get rid of the requirements (SAR, PR, CAS, SOF, etc), or support the requirement. Don’t demand it and not support it—we’ve seen how that plays out with HSC-5’s experience. The video from the NHA flag panel a few years ago spells it out pretty well: “so are we in, or are we out?”
NHA Flag Officer Panel Q&A on HSC-84 & HSC-85

Oh, and I’m pretty sure the Boxer was happy to have HSC today, even if it wasn’t during a PG line:
https://www.businessinsider.in/uss-boxer-had-a-bizarre-and-dangerous-encounter-with-an-iranian-chopper-right-before-the-ship-destroyed-a-drone/articleshow/

 

[Brett327]

I’m not here to solve your community’s problems. You seem well equipped to do that yourself. I’m happy to act as a conduit with your WTI bros at NAWDC though. Since this piques my curiosity, I’ll have to ask those guys what percentage of their course is devoted to SAR vs. SEAL Team insertion.

 

[squorch2]

It sucks to be sold a bill of goods - I get it.

Pags (rightfully) mentions MIW as an area that COCOMs/fleets care about, which is kinda true, some of the time!

Long story short: if you don’t have a networkable sensor or weapons systems on your platform, it’s not broadly useful. (Rover and link kinda address this, but so does Fire Scout for a fraction of the price...)

 

[red_stang65]

Oh believe me, I’ve never thought you were here to solve my/our problems. Rather, your perspective does more to prove the point that HSC’s challenges lie just as much outside of the community as it does inside.

While talking to NAWDC, I’d love if you could ask the SFWTI folks how much they train their RMC students on the capabilities of their RVs. Anecdotally, I've known more than a few who barely understand basic helicopter capabilities (being waved off of a survivor because the RMC didn't know helicopters can recover people without landing went down as an “other” vice a “bad” on one debrief). Then again, maybe they shouldn’t worry about the RMC role, since SANDY does it much better, and COCOMs don’t care about Navy CSAR.

 

[HSMPBR]

Oh, and I’m pretty sure the Boxer was happy to have HSC today, even if it wasn’t during a PG line:
https://www.businessinsider.in/uss-boxer-had-a-bizarre-and-dangerous-encounter-with-an-iranian-chopper-right-before-the-ship-destroyed-a-drone/articleshow/

Awkward.

 

[wlawr005]

I'm not sure where we're disagreeing here. What I was trying to get at is basically what you said. Ask some USAF Viper guys what they think about VFA and you'll probably get a similar take. I'm not sure the gap between HSC and the state of the art is much different than the rest of the airwing, which is not to say that I'm any more of an expert on CVW's than you.

Well, there's no reason to go full retard. How can you draw any parallel to the HSC plight with respect to VFA? We do extremely well with the assets we are given and have a fairly defined mission set my man.

 

[DanMa1156]

I’m not here to solve your community’s problems. You seem well equipped to do that yourself. I’m happy to act as a conduit with your WTI bros at NAWDC though. Since this piques my curiosity, I’ll have to ask those guys what percentage of their course is devoted to SAR vs. SEAL Team insertion.

Having been out of the community now for 3ish years, I assume the SWTI course still incorporates R dudes, which have a distinctly different mission set but same course, right? That alone I assume has to limit the overland training that's involved, no?

 

[RobLyman]

Whoever was actually there did call their FCF a combat FCF. 6K2 logged in green. Talk about going the extra mile for your maintenance team.

Yeah, I can see how logging combat time during an FCF could give you the thousand yards stare.

All kidding aside, the CVW does need the capability at times, but not all of the time. There are assets more prepared, better equipped and better trained, but they are and won't always be available. Keeping HSC assets trained on overland missions while underway is difficult.

HSC is NOT the same as 160th, Air Force PR/CSAR or USMC TRAP. To make it so would require a significant transformation of the community, its training and its deployment model.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Awkward. View attachment 22579
View attachment 22580

Isn’t that a R in the picture? As in, not HSC?

 

[RedFive]

Lets not get ass hurt on where you stand in the hierarchy of proficient units in a given mission set because some random Cobra dude laid out an unfortunate reality.

Not ass hurt at all. At least not from this conversation. I think we all understand each other and agree: Leadership has given HSC too many missions without sufficient support for which the guys walking to the aircraft try to make the best of and, for better or worse, some of those guys have drank the Kool Aid and Tweet about it. I would love to tell you I'm great at all of those missions. I'm not. We get by. You're right, other platforms do have secondary missions they're expected to perform and probably aren't the top tier, but I think it's particularly bad with HSC because EVERY mission is a primary/important mission yet we don't have enough bandwidth to do it all with more proficiency than that of a secondary mission. A la my first Chief who put in all the time and energy she could, but took on too many collaterals and ended up being pretty ineffective until I told her to slim down her commitments.

The video from the NHA flag panel a few years ago spells it out pretty well: “so are we in, or are we out?”
NHA Flag Officer Panel Q&A on HSC-84 & HSC-85

My old Skipper puts the question to the panel very well but I feel like they kind of skirt around the issue and focus on 84/85.

Awkward.

What's a Romeo doing on Boxer anyways...? Weird.

Pags (rightfully) mentions MIW as an area that COCOMs/fleets care about, which is kinda true, some of the time!

Yeah...and neither HSC nor LCS is really going to have the right gear to meet the mission. It's the same story all over again.

Long story short: if you don’t have a networkable sensor or weapons systems on your platform, it’s not broadly useful. (Rover and link kinda address this, but so does Fire Scout for a fraction of the price...)

Fire Scout is not cheap, nor is it reliable. It's like going to the Lamborghini dealer and seeing the price tag on a Murcielago and you think to yourself...yeah, I can afford that. But nobody tells you that it's $2000 for an oil change. God damnit, are we really doing the Fire Scout conversation again? Fuck. It's a system of systems, half of which is bolted to the ship, half of which is flying around. Two different organizations are responsible for said systems (Ship/Squadron). All of said sub-systems must work to accomplish the mission. Surprise, they don't! This makes it very difficult to rely on Fire Scout. At first glance, the airframe might not be that expensive compared to any other gray helo, but the cost of trying to keep all those other systems running is, in my opinion, unreasonable for the capability you (sometimes) acquire. News articles recently came out saying MQ-8C was IOC'd. What a fucking travesty. I wish this forum was high side, I can't say what needs to be said. If you're really interested in this, we can move the discussion there.

 

[HSMPBR]

Isn’t that a R in the picture? As in, not HSC?

Correct.

What's a Romeo doing on Boxer anyways...? Weird.

It would appear the Romeo is doing its primary missions for which it is properly equipped and its crews are properly trained (they also happen to align with the navy’s primary missions): SUW, ASW (alert by the looks of the torp on the right inbd pylon), and a secondary mission of LSF. Can’t say how much EW may have been happening at the same time.

 

[CommodoreMid]

I feel like you could Ctrl F replace VP for HSC. I’m half way through learning a whole new sensor and mission set at the moment and combined maintaining proficiency with all the other traditional VP mission sets, penguin capacity is quickly being approached on the iceberg.

 

[IKE]

Correct.

It would appear the Romeo is doing its primary missions for which it is properly equipped and its crews are properly trained (they also happen to align with the navy’s primary missions): SUW, ASW (alert by the looks of the torp on the right inbd pylon), and a secondary mission of LSF. Can’t say how much EW may have been happening at the same time.

Where's the Torp?

I see a 4 pack of HF, AUX tank, and .50-cal from left to right. It does appear to be configured with ALFS though. Good call to whoever decided to leave off the RHEP. We flew with that stupid s**t for months.

 

[Pags]

Way off topic

Where's the Torp?

I see a 4 pack of HF, AUX tank, and .50-cal from left to right. It does appear to be configured with ALFS though. Good call to whoever decided to leave off the RHEP. We flew with that stupid s**t for months.

Bottom pic of the 60R on Spot 2 looks like it has a torp on the starboard side.

 

[IKE]

Bottom pic of the 60R on Spot 2 looks like it has a torp on the starboard side.

So it does. I only looked at the escorting bird. Probably an Alert. Of note, the only subsurface Iranian I saw in 5 months was being towed by a Delvar...quite a display of military prowess.