Why a steering wheel on carriers?

The quick and easy answer is: the ship will probably run over you.

I qualified as OOD underway on cruise on Kitty Hawk--don't ask me why--"bonding" with my Black Shoe brethren, perhaps? The ship handling drill was to initiate an immediate turn (appropriate direction) while reversing the inboard propellers to "try" to keep the screws away from the splashed A/C.

In anticipation of running over the A/C and crew---the hope was to keep from shredding them. With an ejection seat, some good wind, and a little luck---in theory, the crew will have a better chance, but no guarantees, of course.

One of my former squadron mates paired with one of my former RAG mates punched after a cold cat--daylight--WX no factor. They never recovered either one of them---the ship ran over them. After returning from cruise the ship was put in dry-dock. Upon inspection of one of the below-waterline intake screens, they found some skeletal remains and the flight gear from one of the crew.

Very depressing...the ship had dragged what was left of him around for 4-5 months.

I was an OOD on the TR. Our drill was as I posted above. Another incident where I was OOD was an EA-6B that broke the wires and dribbled off the angle deck. I immediately turned left and swung the stern right. We pivoted around the splash point and did not run over the plane. Stoped going about 90 degrees off our original course. All 4 punched out and ended up in the water off the port side.

Good job---I want you driving the boat when I get my next shot---but then again, I never will get my next shot unless we start taking B747's to the boat.

What year and/or squadron was that? Why did they break the wire? Bad wire? Off-center engagement? Bad hook? All the usual questions..........thanks.

Lucky for them they were angled-off and already halfway down the length of the ship. And lucky someone smart & quick was OOD...

It was somewhere between late 1990 and mid-1992. Don't remember which squadron, we were doing CQs for CVW-8 in the Hampton Roads area. I believe it was a bad wire.

Edit: My fuzzy memory thinks it was right after Christmas 1990 when we left Norfolk for Desert Shield/Storm. We brought the airwing on board and did a few days of CQs/work ups before we quit all flight ops for the mad dash to the Gulf.

HAL Pilot:
Thanks for the update---I was in the HNL base for 7 years before our bean counters/suits closed it. First arrived in HNL in the '50s as an Army brat and could never get the blue water, blue skies and tradewinds out of my system.

How long have you been driving for HAL?

I started at HAL in 7/01, but have spent the last 2 years on furlough. I think I have another year or so before I get recalled.

Okay - it wasn't a perfect loop. The aircraft climb almost straight up (with the nose oscillating) for about 2000 feet, came over the top and pointed straight down like a spear. The pilot punched out at the top. He was a prespective XO going throught the F/A-18 Rag after a career in A-7s. After the investigation he was allowed to continue, successfully CQ'd and went on to the squadron. This caused quite a flap with the FAGs as the younger guys thought he should be booted. They claimed if they had made the same mistake they would have been gone instantly.

Just because you did not hear of the incident doesn't mean it didn't happen. It was around the mid-1992 time frame during CQs on the TR.

Well, what can I say....it happened. I guess the implication is that I would be loose and easy and heresay and false with the memory of two comrades-in-arms??? Comrades that I knew -- personally?? I guess -- if you didn't hear about it -- it's "the stuff urban legends are made of"? I believe that line originated in "The Maltese Falcon", and it really was: "the stuff that dreams are made of....", Sweetheart (?)

I am new to this forum and want to be polite, keep my nose clean, etc., etc., but that kind of response from someone who, by his own admission, has "never heard of either of these" kind of ticks me off. It sure didn't take long, did it? Do a little research on VA-52 and then perhaps you will have "heard of it".... in the meantime, give your fellow Aviators the benefit of the doubt instead of "questioning" what someone who has BTDT says......just a friendly suggestion.

I think mine would also be the response of most Aviators that I know or ever have known........The two gentlemen that I am referring to deserve better than an uninformed "never heard of" (them) comment from a fellow Aviator. Wouldn't you agree, Schnuggapup ??

I probably have several more that you've never heard of......almost all involving Comrades-in-Arms.

Aloha, A4sForever

Okay, I might have got a little too defensive.

That it was a PIO accident is why all the young FAGs were fired up. They believed that it should never had happened and said they would have no respect for an XO/CO that made such a well known blunder. The powers-that-be said that it was understandable that a guy with 700+ A-7 cats would bury the stick in his gut (metaphorically since it's a side stick) on his first F/A-18 shot. They agreed old habits are hard to break but said this should serve as his permenant reminder. I understand he went on and had a successful command tour (according to Snort Snodgrass in the Oceana O'club 3 or 4 years latter - Snort was the TR Gator at the time of the accident and knew the pilot).

I agree - damn shoes, they cause all sorts of problems. Or we can blame Broadsword since he started this thread...

HAL Pilot: F.Y.I....Ship ran over them

Run over by the FDR @ 1970:
CREWNAMES: KILLED: (3) LCDR Roger Blaine Thrasher, Pilot. LT Thomas L. Walls, Nav. AO1 Floyd Russ Bond, Pax. Note: was on his first A-3 flight returning to Rota Spain to reenlist.

SURVIVED: (1) AMS2 Sam "Rosey" Rozier P/C. Note: Continued his naval career retiring as an E-9.

On 02/26/1970 EA-3B was launching from the deck of the USS Roosevelt CVA-42. The catapult system malfunctioned in mid-stroke, resulting in the Skywarrior "dribbling" off the bow. It was later discovered that the 3rd class that fired the cat got a faulty cat shot indication which he pushed the retract button in trying to stop the launch. This in turn sheared a shear pin, causing the aircraft to go off the cat at the speed which they had reached prior to the 3rd class hitting the retract button. The cat felt normal and strong. A faulty wire was determined to have caused the light to flash. Note: This crash resulted in all cat shot operators to raise their hands once the cat is shot.

Once the EA-3B departed, the pilot was pulling the yoke up as far as possible trying to gain altitude, he turned and asked AMS2 Rozier what was going on? And he yelled cold cat. The aircraft went about 300 yards in front of the bow of the ship and began to cart wheel and break up, the nose of the aircraft broke off. AMS2 Rozier went under the water in his seat, he thought still in the cockpit, after 2 minutes of going down he disconnected his seat harness and shot up fast to the surface. Once on the surface he saw the aircraft and 3 helmets floating, at that time the USS Roosevelt ran over him and the A-3. AMS2 Rozier was swept down the side of the carrier getting cut up from the big barnacles breaking both of his legs, nose and gashing his head deep. Upon approaching the fan tail he was worried about the props and thought it was all over but a wake swept him out. He was later picked up by the USS Adams and treated and flown to Naples for hospital care. "Its amazing he survived".

Lithograph of EA-3B BUNO 144851 R-2

I could not agree more with your call on "blame"......and kiss and make up ??? Aviators always kiss and make up.

What goes on cruise, stays on cruise, however.

HAL Pilot: F.Y.I....Ship ran over them

A4sForever - In most case, I believe a good bridge team should have been able to react fast enough to prevent running over them.

Steve - F'ck A the black shoes are to blame, that's just a fact of life

Have a Merry Christmas everyone!

HAL Pilot- I LOVE Hawaiin airlines!! They were soooo nice when I flew with them. I was leaving home for the first time and was homesick and they were so nice and helpful and sweet. Plus they gave us this awesome ice cream cookie with our meal!!! That rocked!!!

on my dads FFG the steering wheel was no bigger than the palm of your hand.

My two cents...
The size of a ships wheel does not matter any more. Back in the OG days of sailing the helm was directly connected to the rudder post by lines so the bigger wheel was needed for mechanical advantage. Now the helm is connected electrically to the steering gear above the rudder or in case of a carrier multiple steering gears.

Many factors go into a ships turn radius. Ships speed, accelerating, decelerating, draft, depth of water, size of rudder, type of rudder, placement of rudder in relation to the screws. The ship will have a smaller turn radius at slower speed and if in shallow water...I think depth of water is taken into account only when depth is two times the draft?...

I have been on ships with both a wheel and a "joystick". Both control how much rudder your inputing but the rudder will only move as fast as the steering gear will allow it to. All most all large ships will also have other joysticks that control the bow and sometimes stern thrusters (fore and aft propellers aligned with the keel that control lateral movement at slow speeds).

Hope that answers your original question. I cant believe I remember all that shat. Later

Merchant Marine...the only ship in the Navy that has bow thrusters is the FFG, which is also the only ship that has a single screw. Carriers and every other US Navy ship have no bow thrusters and multiple screws.

Not really. As has already been stated a few times here, the wheel at the helm simply turns an electric servo-transmitter, not mechanical linkages or gearboxes--no torque required. I'm guessing that the wheel size for carriers was chosen to reflect the massiveness of the ship that it's turning. Like someone else here said, you can literally spin the wheel as fast as you want, but the rudders will only turn as fast as the hydraulic actuators (HUGE) in the a$$ end of the ship will turn them.

True, if you're only doing less than about 11 knots, which is usually way lower than what you're doing during flight ops. Above this, and the limiting factors are the applied torques on the propulsion shafts, and the astern bowl pressures of the propulsion turbines (this is my ball of wax--ex-CVN Nuke MM). These parameters have limits to prevent damage to the turbines/propulsion shafts. To avoid exceeding these limits, astern steam must be applied judiciously, even in the case of an ABE (All Back Emergency).
Just my $.02.

Have some respect for your black shoe brothers

I was a CG OOD for eighteen months in a three-section watch rotation. I've seen a cruiser go from a Flank 3 bell (30+ knots) to all back full to stop the ship in a single ship length (approx two-hundred yards). It rattles the ship to say the least and it's a good way to clear the fantail when the wake catches up with you.

When a carrier does it's part of their Basic Casualty Control Drills (BECKY's), and it's best to observe this from a distance, but don't take my word for it...

I liked the earlier picture of the EA-3B by the way, have any more like it?

While I believe you that a CG could do this, we were talking about a CVN doing it--and as a Nuke MM, I say it ain't happenin'. Yes, we did Propulsion Plant Drills (PPD's on CVN's, BECCD's on CV's), and we certainly did ABE's, but never from a bell above AI (Standard). In the case of a real emergency in which the ship itself is hazarded, well then main engine limits be damned, we'll do an ABE from any bell, but if you try to stop a carrier doing 30 knots in 1 shiplength, you will break something--guaranteed! And I wouldn't want to be anywhere near any of the propulsion turbines when something broke!

I am really getting "uncomfortable" with all this BLACKSHOE chatter :icon_wink , but:
You mean pictures like these ? VQ-2

On 03/08/1974 EA-3B was inbound to the USS AMERICA (CV-66) in the Western Med. Aircraft made the landing and caught the #1 wire (ooops!) 5 feet right (OOPPS !!) of the centerline (note: very, very bad place to be with a heavyweight bird like a Whale -- A4s). After 50 inches of cable run travel, the purchase cable failed approx 1 inch into the stbd socket. Socket assembly separated from the cap upon reaching the tail hook point. Aircraft continued up the angle at max power unable to regain altitude and settled down in the water. All crewmembers escaped and the EA-3B floated for 5 minutes.

Once saw a 16mm film (remember that stuff?) of this and other landing accidents in the ready room -- to motivate everyone. This one brought everyone to their feet, yelling "GO WHALE!! GO WHALE !!" The film was like watching slow-mo water torture ... the "Old Girl" didn't make it, but the crew did. I waved the EA-3's from VQ-1 and got 7 hours of stick time with them out of NAS Cubi -- LSO "cross-training". Very heavy empty weight birds, those VQ EA-3's, but a good, powerful aircraft. They usually showed up on the ball at max trap weight with only one or two passes before BINGO fuel. Obviously time for all to "tighted up" when there was NO BINGO!! Most Whale drivers were "good sticks" but it was always pucker time when the Whale (or VIGI) called the ball ... especially at night!!

ROGER BALL !!

Whoops, sorry, A4s, we'll tone down the "dirty" talk. But this is the SWO forum! :icon_wink
Seriously, though, when I was on the JFK, we once had to pull an ABE to avoid being sucked into a giant green glowing time warp. And when we failed to avoid it, we nearly hit the yacht of a vacationing congressman on the other side of the warp. Then, [brown-shoe-speak] we sent out our alert planes to check things out. Scared the bejeezus out of that congressman.[/brown-shoe-speak]
It really happened!

I know ... just contemplating the possibilities makes me even more uncomfortable .... the horror . THE HORROR !!

ROGER BALL !!