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USS Fitzgerald collision in C7F

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
Plenty of folks are made into" HAC buts;" sure they're a HAC, but not at night, not with a 2P, etc.
Everyone of those is an example of leadership not having a backbone to hold folks to a universal standard in the name of self preservation. They’re too scared to make a difficult decision which might bring scrutiny upon their training program, their command overall, and most importantly, their career.
 

CommodoreMid

Whateva! I do what I want!
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
It's pretty easy in VP to pass the trash too unfortunately, happens a lot. Pretty easy to hide someone when you have 21 seats on the plane and can always plus an additional person on as a babysitter.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I’m not saying there aren’t bad sticks out there. What I’m talking about is willingness to protect and promote Shoes who don’t rise to even the basic level of competence as shiphandlers. And I’ve said it in the past, but when a community as a whole doesn’t value fundamental professional acumen, how do you expect it to have any sense of esprit de corps? What are you left with?

Now I’m also not saying that being a good mariner is everything. I’ve known guys who were great aviators but still shouldn’t be in command of anything. But it has to count for something. I’m sure someone will pipe up with a counter example, but I find it impossible to imagine being in a squadron with a DH who just doesn't fly, ever, per the Skipper’s orders, because he’s flat out incompetent in the airplane - let alone that guy then leaves with good paper and screens for command.

Anyway - I still have a problem with these guys going to a GCM over this. “Being held to a high standard” is one thing, and I agree that consequences are definitely in order. The OOD and CIC watch team’s sailoring days should be over. But there’s a big difference between professional consequences and criminal culpability. Unless these dudes were drunk or asleep on watch, I don’t see how you make the leap from incompetence to criminal negligence.
 

bubblehead

Registered Member
Contributor
I’m not saying there aren’t bad sticks out there. What I’m talking about is willingness to protect and promote Shoes who don’t rise to even the basic level of competence as shiphandlers. And I’ve said it in the past, but when a community as a whole doesn’t value fundamental professional acumen, how do you expect it to have any sense of esprit de corps? What are you left with?

Now I’m also not saying that being a good mariner is everything. I’ve known guys who were great aviators but still shouldn’t be in command of anything. But it has to count for something. I’m sure someone will pipe up with a counter example, but I find it impossible to imagine being in a squadron with a DH who just doesn't fly, ever, per the Skipper’s orders, because he’s flat out incompetent in the airplane - let alone that guy then leaves with good paper and screens for command.

Anyway - I still have a problem with these guys going to a GCM over this. “Being held to a high standard” is one thing, and I agree that consequences are definitely in order. The OOD and CIC watch team’s sailoring days should be over. But there’s a big difference between professional consequences and criminal culpability. Unless these dudes were drunk or asleep on watch, I don’t see how you make the leap from incompetence to criminal negligence.
IMHO, the Navy is unwilling or is unable to address the real issue (training and manning) at hand, and when bad things happen we have to listen to Flag Officers sitting in their glass towers while they eviscerate people. The surface Navy is seriously broken.

The fact that they want to charge people criminally is disgusting.
 

Beans

*1. Loins... GIRD
pilot
This might be controversial, but if we hanged a few admirals, I bet you'd see a "culture change" real quick.
That would certainly be an indicator of us changing from a culture adhering to set of laws "A" to a culture adhering to a set of laws "B." In other words, yes we'd become a completely different culture.
 

wink

VS NFO. Blue and Gold Off. Former Recruiter.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Sounds like they will be making better use of simulators in the future, but it can't be enough. There are obvious training shortcomings. A good part of the problem though is simple currency, practise, learning based on real world experience.

Aviators practise their stock and trade far more frequently than a SWO gets to handle a ship. When not deployed an aviator will fly how many times a week, 2-3? In my day it was usually 4-6 hops a week from the beach. How many times does a SWO Divo handle his ship when not deployed? Rarely, of course. Is this replaced by 2-3 sim sessions a week? NO! When a SWO comes back from a shore or even staff afloat tour do they go thorough intensive back in the saddle training like an aviator CAT II syllabus at the RAG? I don't think so. Imagine an entire wardroom on a ship in the yards for 8 months, a year or more. They will never get that ship handling experience back. I had a buddy that happened to. After just a few months on his first ship it went to the yards. He always felt robbed and was truly behind his peers. But he sure could write shit hot reports on the progress of work done in his division by civ yard birds.
 

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
It's pretty easy in VP to pass the trash too unfortunately, happens a lot. Pretty easy to hide someone when you have 21 seats on the plane and can always plus an additional person on as a babysitter.
Yes, I saw it several times... very few COs that had the backbone to put the safety of their crews above their own career ambitions. The only one of my front office members that was willing to entertain the idea comfortably was my NFO CO, who appreciated the downsides of being along for the ride with an unsafe pilot in the front...

The ONLY time I actually ever saw the community non-qual someone the CO in question made sure they got top cover from CPRG and PERS before delivering the news that the person in question wouldn't be qualified on their 24 month anniversary.
 

CommodoreMid

Whateva! I do what I want!
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I've actually seen a handful of people not make it and shown either out of the Navy or, if they were good officers just sucking at the aviation thing, given redesignation, but I've seen more PPCs not sign for plane stuff or TCs not given crews than those who didn't make it.
 
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