The Steve Wilkins Memorial Surface Warfare Officer (SWO) Thread

I had a ENS SWO roommate, who decided to have division meetings in my stateroom.

Not just a couple dudes talking, but a SWO, CPO and 1-3 PO1s.

I talked to them a couple times about this.. We were flying 12 hours a night, landing at 0530, grabbing breakfast/shower and racking out. And they would do this at 0715ish, just as I was falling asleep.

After a week of this my OIC gave me the blessing to "do what's needed".. I kept a couple pairs of boots in the rack, and opened the curtain and chucked them at the jackass SWO.. (I HAD warned him).

Size 17 boot meets ass. SWO turns around.. 2nd boot meets balls.

ENS was pissed.. Our roommate (who was also trying to sleep, but was a SWO Nuke) applauded from the top rack.

His DH (LT who was not a fan of me) wanted to "Talk" to me about it.. My OIC told him to f-off.

Never had a problem the rest of the cruise.

What if the problem is the CO/XO? And even worse, what if they're under pressure from above (Commodore) and that's where the ridiculous requirements are being driven from.
And what if the requirements which make no sense come from SURFLANT?

ASW certification requirements just changed to something pretty much impossible to accomplish without increasing ship underway time, and increasing P-3/HSL squadron flight hours. Of course, now this year they're talking about cutting back on both due to burning through operational funding so quickly.

What if rating mergers and reduced training is the obstacle? The TM/GM, CT/EW, SM/QM mergers have all negatively impacted the proficiency of those ratings.

Better management practices shipboard will improve community morale, which in turn would probably improve baseline productivity, but it won't make a miracle to overall readiness.

These are of course the opinions of a mere JO who probably doesn't know even half the story.

I haven't posted too much lately because I've actually been busy with school for once, but I've have a few thoughts after having read this thread.

Most of the regulars on this site know that I'm in the SWO/IP BDCP program (this statement is really for those who don't).

Most people I have talked to about going SWO (with the IP option) have immediately started with a long-winded tirade about how terrible and shitty and grueling and demanding SWO-life is and how they eat their young and whatnot. I'm not denying that it's a rough community, and I realize that the Brown/Black shoe bashing will probably always exist, but the OP is right..

Change starts with small baby-steps. You guys sitting here bashing the community and telling prospectuses how much it sucks and how they're all self-loathing hateful bastard and whatnot isn't going to inflict change. It simply is not. You're allowing people who aren't even commissioned yet to automatically have a negative representation of a community that, while some of you may have worked around, most of you have never actually been a part of and it really isn't fair.

I haven't said much because I brush off a lot of the SWO-bashing on this site and I'm used to it. However, there are a lot of people lurking that I'm sure are taking a lot of this to heart. Nobody is denying that the community may have its faults and that it is tough, but to present only the negative aspects of the community and to knock it into glue simply isn't fair to anybody who may have actually had their heart set on that community.

Nothing will ever change if people do nothing but promulgate the same negative attitude and the same negative stereotypes about the community.

Eh, Adana is a pretty lackluster town - I meant that Incirlik itself was more cushy.

Funding could also play a major part in the SWO culture. While on the CVN, our Suppo used to advise us (the Supply JO's) to really try and avoid the SURF side of the house and stick to AIR or SUB as much as possible. Things could have changed since, but the horror stories were no funding, no parts and no support on the SURF side vs. tons of funding, parts and support on the SUB and AIR sides.

As to the SWO's on the CVN, they all seemed pretty happy and didn't seem to be grumbling any more or less then the staff guys or the disassociated brown shoes in the ship's company.

This is one of those instances where someone who has never been on a deployment shouldn't say anything about how easy they are. Incirlik is certainly not the boat but the enlisted maintenance troops like FMRAM worked their asses off to make sure the we had working Prowlers to fly over Iraq. And it sure as hell ain't home, at least for the vast majority of us.

Change won't really come to the SWO community until it accepts a couple of different things:

One, it's counter-productive and dangerous to deprive your officers of sleep. Just having your crew well-rested makes an amazing difference in performance and morale; and as the Air side knows, performance when even somewhat sleep-deprived (let alone, a couple days without it) is equivalent to performance when drunk.

Two, it's the responsibility of the leadership (DH, XO, Captain) to make sure that the crew has ample time to sleep and relax. You'd be amazed how obvious that seems, and yet many SWO leaders would roll their eyes and make jerk-off motions if someone told them that. If leadership accepted that crew rest / crew day isn't a "not to interfere with work" thing, but an absolute, the benefits would roll downhill. Stupid little tasking starts sliding, and then everyone starts realizing how unimportant that stupid little tasking was.

Third, peer pressure should be reoriented toward healthy directions. I once got "taken aside" by a fellow Divvo (...yeah) because my knocking off at 1600 every day was making everyone look bad. I should be sticking around until 1800 or until the XO leaves, like them. That sort of idiocy rolls downhill and contributes to the venomous hate of the community.

Maybe I'm getting too cynical too soon, but it seems like the only change that can occur comes from those with stars on their collars, and by then they're so instilled with "I walked to school 5 miles in the snow uphill both ways" syndrome that it doesn't matter.

As someone pointed out before -- a DH, XO, or CAPT typically doesn't give a rats ass if an ENS or JG thinks the crew would benefit from more sleep. As one LT put it to me: "The only thing an ENS/JG is to a CO is a 'relieved for cause' waiting to happen."

Rep points for this bud... spot on... I agree with you whole heartily.. This is half my driving force to be a SWO.. I was enlisted for 6 years and spent 4 1/2 of those on a ship (1/2 for Boot/A-School and my last year I was hand picked to be an instructor at STG A School)

I believe there is bullshit/drama/mayhem in every community.. We work for the government!!! It is a given!! It was like that in the military, it is like that in my federal civilian job!

SWO might have it worse then others.. But speaking from first hand experience, my dual warfare quals and the salt on my shoulders I can tell you this.. The Fleet needs more like minded people like me and you.. Just simply by that sentence I quoted that told me enough I needed to know...

If you can go into the fleet with the attitude of wanting to make a positive change and you are willing to TACTFULLY (Note that word) voice your opinion and do what is in your power to find that impossible sweet spot of pleasing your sailors and accomplishing the mission then you already won half the battle.

Every command is different... speaking from an enlisted point of view obviously I cannot comment on the back door politics that go on in the wardroom as they are nothing I know about yet... I can tell you this... I am a VERY excellent judge of character in a person.. I've had good leadership (CO/XO/DH) and I've had horrible leadership (CO/XO/DH). One thing that I have always noticed... A good leader is a good people person.. I still remember my first ship USS Belleau Wood while in port our CO would randomly give us days off just because he felt we were working hard... That may not seem like much in the grand scheme of things.. But he got a return on this ten fold.. When it was go time for deployment, workups, Ops.. We handed our business like none other..
Food for thought.. that CAPT went on to become a 2 Star last time I checked

Just kinda going off on a rant here so please excuse me guys.. Just basically getting at I've noticed alot of flack come towards the SWO community lately.. for obvious reasons of course reading the paper.. But there are people out there willing to make a change or willing to set the example.. You learn from good leadership and you learn from bad leadership.. It is how you display these traits as to what results you will yield. Personally if it is as cutthroat as it seems to be..I like a challenge

LOL NO doubt ... I agree with what your saying.. I've had my share of bosses like that both Chiefs and Civilian Managers. There isn't much to be said if the upper echelon has Q-tips in their ears =/ I guess what I was getting as was there is that hope of eventually getting to that position and being different then what you have observed..

Example... Going through A school I thought most of the instructors and BDO's were assholes.. This is partially due to the fact I was 17,18 years old yes.. But ultimately I felt that it was a bit in excess. Fast forward 5 years later I was a NMT instructor at STG school. I held martial law when needed, other times I treated my sailors with the respect and courtesy as I would if they were on a ship with me... Even to this day I still get random facebook invites from some of my former students and I was only there 10 months.

Ultimately I suppose it's just how much bullshit you can put up with initially to get to the level of being able to make a change.

I think you optimistic "change from within" dudes are overestimating your ability to swallow bullshit for the requisite years until you reach command. But whatever, do your thing, dare to dream, baby.

On the other hand...every once in a while in the SWO house, you get to do some cool shit.

I was only commenting on it because I've been to Incirlik numerous times (>dozen) and it's pretty well accommodated like almost any of the other bigger bases in Europe.

Man, you aviators LOVE Surface Warfare, huh?


Just read what my post started. Seems like some pretty good perspectives of how bad SWO life can be. Still happy with my decision to go SWO (turned down SNFO for it).

PS, those are some enticing-sounding bribes...

again, if you solely base your opinions on a website, you're wrong...

Wow, for a minute there I thought you were talking about the P-3 community.

I thought it was HSL.. But we got to sleep there.

I think our community pushes the crew rest thing a lot more than it should. When OPSOs start trying to sea lawyer the crew rest rules for training flights you know your community has lost sight of the forest for the trees.

But hey, NATOPS does say that it is not a substitute for sound judgment. And we all know how sound our readiness system is...

I know exactly why you commented on it, but when you start making comments about deployments you really have no clue what you are talking about. I was trying to be nice but not coming out and saying it, but STFU.

Two observations:
Somewhat ironic, with all the negative comments about the SWO community (which seem to be fairly accurate, from my experience) in this thread, that several months ago when a midshipman who had wanted aviation didn't get it, he was basically told to stop whining. (Don't know if it was the same posters or not.)

Is part of the difference between the two communities that, as a group, the people in the SWO community are not as talented as the people in the aviation community? That seems like the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about.

And WTF is "talent" exactly?

Ill-defined, I suppose some combination of intelligence and ability to get things done.

Clearly there are exceptions in both communities. But from what I have seen, for people who are physically qualified, aviation tends to be a preferred choice over the surface community. That means that people who are ranked higher (whatever the "ranking" is based on) will tend towards aviation.

I think "not as talented" is a bit disingenuous but I do believe that there is a significant difference in the nature of a person who is attracted to Naval Air vs. the SWO/Sub community.

I work with several former bubbleheads and SWO types and it is amusing to watch them beat a dead horse long after they have all the information needed to make a decision. They seem very deliberate and slow moving in their thought process, whether that is their nature or the nurture of a career that moved at 15 knots I do not know.

Perhaps it even happens in those that went Naval Air. When I was in VT-10 they drafted three guys for jets. None of them survived the training track to VT-86. So were they incapable of adapting or simply unmotivated? Again I don't know but only one redesignated and that was to AMO and not SWO. The other two got out.