The Great Growler Gallery

To add on to what Brett said there is talk to keep the Prowler flying until 2014 with the expeditionary squadrons and then transitioning them to G's.

Since Cartwright rarely talks out his ass, he was (slightly) misquoted. Below is the complete text of his comments about the F-22, E/Fs, and Gs:

General CARTWRIGHT. Senator, I was probably one of the more
vocal and ardent supporters for the termination of the F–22 pro-
duction. The reason is twofold.
First, there is a study in the Joint Staff that we just completed
and partnered with the Air Force on that, number one, said that
proliferating within the United States military fifth generation
fighters to all three Services was going to be more significant than
having them based solidly in just one service because of the way
we deploy and because of the diversity of our deployment. So that
is point number one.
Point number two is in the production of the F–35 Joint Strike
Fighter, the first aircraft variant will support the Air Force re-
placement of their F–16s and F–15s. It is a very capable aircraft.
It is 10 years newer in advancement in avionics and capabilities in
comparison to the F–22. It is a better, more rounded capable fight-
er. That is kind of point number one.
Point number two is the second variant is the variant that goes
to the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps made a conscious decision
to forgo buying the F–18 E/F in order to wait for the F–35. So the
F–35 variant that has the V/STOL capability, which goes to the
Marine Corps is number two coming off the line.
And the third variant coming off of the line is the Navy variant,
the carrier-suitable variant.
Another thing that weighed heavily certainly in my calculus was
the input of the combatant commanders, and one of the highest
issues of concern from the combatant commanders is our ability to
conduct electronic warfare. That electronic warfare is carried on-
board the F–18. And so, looking at the lines that we would have
in hot production, number one priority was to get fifth generation
fighters to all of the Services. Number two priority was to ensure
that we had a hot production line in case there was a problem, and
number three was to have that hot production line producing F–
18 Gulfs, which support the electronic warfare fight.
So those issues stacked up to a solid position, at least on my
part, that it was time to terminate the F–22. It is a good airplane.
It is a fifth generation fighter. But we needed to proliferate those
fifth generation fighters to all of the Services, and we needed to en-
sure that we were capable of continuing to produce aircraft for the
electronic warfare capability, and that was in the F–18. In the F–
18, we can also produce front-line fighters that are more than capa-
ble of addressing any threat that we will face for the next 5 to 10
years.


If you're interested in the complete text of his testimony, go here: http://armed-services.senate.gov/Transcripts/2009/07 July/09-58 - 7-9-09.pdf

You can see by reading this that Cartwright is one smart dude; I'm glad he's in the position that he's in, because unlike some folks in senior positions he really does have a comprehensive grasp of the range of issues.

A lot of ins and outs, a lot of what-have-you's...

They are going to stop maintaining golf courses? Where the hell are we going to get a cheap round in when we are out in Hawaii?

This sucks.

Cool, I also had no idea that Spudly was the chief wing nut.

Expeditionary Growlers with Air Force ECMO/WSOs?

Interesting article I came across, don't really understand the reasoning or why even the Navy would need this unless of NFO personnel shortages since the Growler has 2 less seats the then the Prowler.

It seems this is already happening on a limited basis with the EA6B. I had no idea.

I imagine it would make for some never ending 1 on 1 trying to top each others flight experience's/ story's in the cockpit.

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Features/newtech/Pages/box102109growler.aspx

The arrangment was made in the 90s with the retirement of the EF-111 and, to some extent, the F-4G. USAF WSOs/EWOs have been doing tours at Whidbey (and deploying) for many years -- more than a decade, and perhaps even 15 years (I don't remember when exactly it started happening -- I'm sure there are some Prowler bubbas on here who know).

The original push was to have a completely joint EA-6B unit, as it was the only remaining tactical platform of it's type and as such had to be shared by all players.

That obviously never really happened. The AF hasn't had the opportunity to recapitalize any new jammers, so they're looking to keep riding the Navy's coat-tails.

There were 2 USAF Captains there in 88 when I went through the RAG. One was with VAQ-130 and the other at the wing so it's been going on a long time for sure. IIRC at least one of them transferred to the Navy.

The Navy has a few 'Expeditionary' squadrons of Prowlers that support the USAF. They do not deploy to the boat but instead deploy to land bases, generally with the USAF but sometimes with the Marines. Before OIF the two deployment sites were Incirlick, Turkey and Prince Sultan Air Base (PSAB), Saudi Arabia. Nowadays they are a little closer to the action. When I was in one there were four USAF aircrew in the squadron, one pilot and three Navigators. The pilots were a mix of tactical types, usually F-15E and F-16 but with a few A-10 guys too. The Navs were generally tactical too, mainly F-15E and B-1 guys, but a few were from the RC-135 and EC-130. They were usually good guys and gals and gave the squadrons a pretty broad base of experience when it came to USAF ops. When I was leaving the USAF had stopped sending Pilots and had started sending WSO's straight out of VT-86.

There used to be four squadrons but now there are only three, one of them was retired after OIF because they figured they didn't have as much of a need for them anymore. Whoops. There was supposed to be a fifth squadron but it never got off the ground, the Navy figured out there weren't enough Prowlers to go around. The reserve squadron, VAQ-209, has been treated as a part-time expeditionary squadron, deploying quite often for about 2 months at a time to fill gaps. Boat squadrons often supplement the expeditionary squadrons in their deployed locations now too with dets.

The four Marine Prowler squadrons were not officially considered expeditionary but they were treated as such when it came to deployments. There is supposed to be a VMAQ squadron in Iwakuni but that was often filled by a VAQ squadron while the Marines played in the sandbox. Occasionally even a boat squadron would go there.

If they want to continue the expeditionary squadrons after Prowlers leave the service someone will have to cough up the money to buy more Growlers. Just an offer for Navy guys to ride in anything they have is a bit pathetic.

Mid-90's is when they stood up the expeditionary squadrons, so about 15 years.

Not really, the USAF has pretty much chosen not to get a new jamming platform. Talking to the old EF-111 and F-4G Wild Weasel guys they all said they were always red-headed stepchildren in big blue. Anecdotal evidence should often be taken with a grain of salt but the USAF's decisions when it comes to that area back that up. It appears that the USAF thougth that stealth was the be-all, end-all after Desert Storm and rapidly got rid of their EA assets, right in time for Kosovo and the F-117 getting it's ass blown off. Since then the USAF has dithered and left EA at the bottom of the priority list, where it will stay until something else gets it's ass blown off. The perfect example of this is the F-16CJ's, in which a pod replaced a entire weapon system on a dedicated aircraft and couldn't do anywhere near what it replaced was able to do. They have gotten better but it is indicative of the Air Force's attitude to EA, an afterthought.

Those were PEP guys and not part of the whole expeditionary arrangement. My last CO in Prowlers did a PEP tour with EF-111's and flew in the Gulf War.

The article mentions that the AF doesn't consider a buy of 30 Growlers cost-effective from a maintenance-support point of view. Hell, buy the 30 & task the Navy OMD organization to provide depot-level maintenance. Can't believe the General's response to the issue. If the EF-111 worked for the AF as a 2-seater, the EF-18G should also.

As flash pointed out, the EF-111 was a real stepchild to the USAF. There were very few dollars spent on it and when it retired the ALQ-99 system it had was four generations behind the EA-6B's ALQ-99 (stuck at ICAP I but with no band 9, no geo, no HARM, manual antenna steering etc for us old Prowler guys).

It was significantly less capable than the Prowler, although on the good side the Navy scored a heck of a lot of band 4-8 transmitters from them upon retirement and they went from the EF-111 canoe right to a pod with no retrofit.

As far as Navy picking up depot, it would work but we wouldn't do it out of the goodness of our heart. I'm sure the boys in powder blue would need to cut a check from a checking account that is low and getting lower for manned platforms.

I have no doubt that the ICAP III system in the Growler will work fine with two crew but the pilot will have to add some duties.

I wonder if the AF General's chairmanship of the Joint Air Dominance Organization means his opinions will become more than opinions...

You made a funny.

As far as Navy picking up depot, it would work but we wouldn't do it out of the goodness of our heart. I'm sure the boys in powder blue would need to cut a check from a checking account that is low and getting lower for manned platforms.


Good points, Pugs. MHO would be that Depot-level maintenance for the AF on EA-18Gs would be chump-change compared to most of the checks they write. It would be good for the country to standardize jamming platforms & continue spreading the love of jointness throughout the uniformed services. Also, the Marines should have to buy some, too, as they'll never be able to afford a jammimg package for the F-35Bs they can't afford in the first place. But wait, that would mean they'll have to keep NFO's beyond 2016 or whatever.

Yep, I fully expect that the Marines will be flying Prowlers into 2020. I have little faith in the JSF assuming all it's roles in time. Getting on board now with G would be smart all over (so not likely to happen)

Sweet, I can trade in my brand new jet to go be a second class citizen in the Air Force, hopefully flying some flavor of aircraft that has been systematically neglected to buy more Raptors. Sign me up! Or the Air Force could jump into a time machine, take a look at that decision to completely ignore tactical EW, and do something.

Part of the agreement between the USN and the USAF was that the Navy would provide Prowler capability to the USAF and we could plan on using thier big-wing tankers for overland missions.
The way I'm viewing Maj Gen Scott's comments is that with the retirment of the Prowler, the Air Force will not have any WSO's involved in the warfare area of EA. F-16CJ's can do it, but they are single-seat, so no WSO's. He wants to keep some WSO's engaged in the warfare area for career progression but also when the USAF gets around to buying an EA platform, they will have crews who have been involved in the mission area continuously.

I think that is more urban legend than anything else, they did it in Gulf War with no such 'agreement' and it is not like they would just leave us out to dry when all a COCOM wants more 'warheads on foreheads' and couldn't give a shit if USAF, Navy or Marines is painted on the side of the delivery vehicle.

I think that might be the General's view but the number of guys they will be able to shoehorn into the boat squadrons are going to be pretty insignificant, a handful of PEP guys and that is it. The Navy is not going to want to rely very much on a manning source that might just dry up all of a sudden one year because the USAF wants to buy a new cupholder for it's F-22's. And from what I have seen I think that a token few guys would likely have little impact in their parent service, 'pissing in the wind' comes to mind.

And while many of the F-16CJ guys are smart and are good at that jobs most don't have anywhere near the expertise that VAQ/VMAQ guys have. For some it is just another F-16 tour.

Combined with the Marines future reliance on the F-35 as their EA platform it will be a sad end of a warfare speciality for two services that pioneered EA.

Wasn't there a Marine a/a kill in ODS on exchange in Eagles too?

I recall hearing somewhere (API instructor, maybe? Not sure) that the most recent Marine kill was in an F-15 on a PEP tour.