Okay, to everyone who wants a 'surge' or at the very least keep current troop levels, please explain to me how that will help things. I am really curious because for the past 3 1/2 years we have had a similar number of troops in Iraq, and yet things have only gotten arguably worse. The number of attacks on US troops has risen steadily and inexorably upward. A big part of the reason the casualty numbers have not shot up at the same rates is because we have gotten somewhat better at countering some of the attacks and withdrew into fortified bases. But that only helps so much, and it does not solve the root problems like the complete lack of government, basic services and any semblance of order in many parts of the country. How do we fix that stuff? Well, some of it is unfixable. The Iraqi's trust that the US will make things better for them is pretty much shot by now. After years of telling them it will get better there is still not much to be hopeful for. Oil production is still below prewar levels, unemployment is rampant, power is spotty, and reconstruction has been uneven and incomplete in many cases. So what should be the goals right now? Some would argue that we need to ensure that there is a viable democratic government there. I think that the ineptitude of the current government, riddled as it is with corruption and sectarian divisions, is simply broke. The easiest way to fix it is to enforce some sort of federation on the country and divide the spoils, specifically oil. Ram it down there throats for all I care, it is probably the only solution short of putting in another ruthless dictator in charge who holds the country together by force and intimidation. Many of you say we need to fight the 'terrorists' and make sure 'they' (who, please tell me) don't bomb the US. I ask you who the hell we are even fighting over there? To say that we need to 'kill all the terrorists' is not only a simplistic way of looking at what is happening in Iraq, but sheer and blatant ignorance. Do you all honestly think that most of the people who we are fighting are foreign terrorists? While it is a point of raging debate even among people who know a lot better than me, there is general agreement that it has never been more than a small minority. If there were a larger number why don't you hear a lot about it? Why have they not put them on display like Zarqawi? Where are they??!!! And if you think foreign terrorists, or Iran for that matter, is behind most of the attacks on US forces then you are wrong again. While foreign elements have been behind some of the worst attacks, like some of the more spectacular car bombings and the al-Askari shrine bombing, most of the violence is brought to you by your local insurgents. Many of these guys could care less about Al-Qaeda, or Iran, or even what goes on in the next city. They just see the US as being an occupier, in their homeland. Sound familiar? Isn't that exactly why most Southerners fought for the South, because the Yankees were there? How do we fix that? Pull out? I don't see another way......getting them to like us is like trying to get that girl you really like, but doesn't like you like that, to go out with you. All the roses and chocolate in the world ain't going to get her into your bed, sorry........just ask Brett..... What we did when we invaded is unleash the full fury of long simmering sectarian tensions that gripped the country since its artificial creation by the British after World War I. We can't fix them, they will have to settle it themselves. Simple as that, that is what the situation is over there. And whether we like or not, we will have to leave with most of our troops sooner or later. What do you suggest we do? Leave them there for 5, 10 or 20 years? The Israelis were in southern Lebanon for 18 years and they are just as good, if not better than we are at counter-insurgency. When do we declare victory? When we kill all or most of the terrorists? How do we know when that is? When violence has dropped to acceptable levels? What exactly is that? Or better yet, leave it to the next President, preferably a Democrat some can blame our defeat on them. We might be able to do some nice things in the short term but in the long term we are pretty screwed for now. The best scenario is to have a loose federation that gets along, somewhat, that does not drag its neighbors into a larger Mideast war (Shia (Iran) vs Sunni (Saudi) vs Kurd vs Turk vs Shia etc). It is a mess and we can't fix it, cut our losses while we still can, pull out and try and start repairing the damage we hath wrought. Good enough for you? Oh yeah, that’s right, not for most.........well, some you just can't reach........
Yeah, the funny thing is that they like to shoot us with them......really helps them out too........... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm :icon_roll
While I don't necessarily agree with the thrust of Flash's post, he does make some good points. My understanding of how the surge will be any different is manifold. First, ROE changes will be made to prevent the local politicos from interfering with out military ops, like going after Sadr. Second, both US and Iraqi forces are going to converge on Baghdad in an effort to establish lasting security there. Third, a PRT approach and jobs initiative will address reconstruction and employment issues. Lastly, a fairly significant change in leadership will bring a fresh set of eyes and opinions to bear. Now, whether these things will result in meaningful changes remains to be seen, but I don't think it's accurate (or fair) to call it business as usual and just hoping for the best. Oh yeah, and for those who advocate a withdrawal prior to completion (Mesopotamius Interruptus) - everyone knows the pullout method doesn't work. I should write for Colbert. Brett
Iraq's a mess. we should just pack it up, and get back to doing what we do best...making money and renovating our houses so we can flip em and screw the next guy. Who's with me?
Didn't you leave something out? What about catching the guys? Plus, one plot a terrorist act does not make. If you think that Iraq is the main place such plots are being cooked up, you are fooling yourself yet again........
I have faith in Lt Gen Patreaus, but I think he and the change in strategy will be too little too late. Learn that the hard way with those 'ladies' you picked up at the Blue Dolphin and Mi Pueblo?
You sure there are not any mini-Brett's running around Coupeville, Oak Harbor or Anacortes? Are you going to be welcomed back with open arms with some of the 'locals'?
If there are, I don't want to know about it. If any of my progeny are lurking here on AW, you showing up on my doorstep will result in me hiring a drifter to kill you and dump your body in the sound. Call it a retroactive abortion. Brett
Possibly the funniest thing I have read on this site . . . thank you for brightening up a day spent mind-melding with the SIPRNET . . .
All this political talk is making me dizzy. Dude, it's just your job. And yes, Iraq is a mess. Who cares? I don't. I've gone over there twice and you know what? It sucked..............twice. They don't like us, we don't like them and everybody knew it was going to go down sooner or later. If the policy making rich boys want to continue, well it's always fun blowing up sh!t, and if they don't, well I don't know about you guys but this ole' south carolina boy sure could use a WestPac! Remember those days? "He Numba Wan G-I!!
I'll second that. I got a good laugh out this one too. The whole quote was pretty solid, but the punch line did it for me. ...Good stuff. I gotta bail, no comment on this debate (other than pulling out would be a mess)
If AW is read on the SIPRNET, would all this information considered classified and unmentionable outside of the secure area?
If I could read AW on the SIPR, my Tactics project would never have gotten done . . . or at least my partner would have been beating me about the head and shoulders and telling me to stop screwing around . . .
To approach this from another point of view... I will lay out a few caveats. I do not support a withdrawl, I voted in the last election, I did volunteer to serve (albeit, before March of 2003). Flash, I think you were right on. How will more troops help? The fundamental difference lies in what are we fighting for, and what are they fighting for.... See 'Vietnam', does anyone even know our mission anymore? Is it to combate terrorism, or spread democracy and peace to Iraq? Or was it just to take Sadam out of the picture? If the concern was terrorism, why dont we go blow some sh!t up in Iran, we are already pretty close, right? Show them we really mean business and such. OO OOO and this is one is the kicker, how is it determined when you have ultimately defeated an enemy that has NO country of origin, NO distinct markings, NO predictability, NO ability to negotiate, NO rules of engagement, and a seemingly unlimited supply of reasources.....because that is the war the American people are signed up for in a "war on terrorism." WAIT my bad.. there was the whole "Mission Complete" S-3 carrier landing thing; maybe that was a mistake? Its like the song that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started singing it... aw sh!t I hate when I do that... As far as the 'State of the Union', refer to the famous quote, "a house divided against itself can not stand." I watched the highlights, and read the reviews, from what I gathered it was basically a display of groveling to the left, "sorry for d!cking you for the past 6 years... but please please please keep following my impeachable (i mean impecable) leadership." It seems as now there is a system of checks and balances again, streamlining things through is so 2004. Keep in mind back in 2003 Iraq was only going to cost the American people $2-3 billion, lastes figures I have seen $415billion todate, with an average annual increase of 20%. Do I know where to take things now? No, not saying that I do, but I havent blown $300million on a presidential campaign yet. What I do know, is the country needs change, whether it be leadership, direction, the weather, we need something to bring the consensous of the American people to a united front. As far as the protection of American soil... are you bonkers!? We could send the whole American population to Iraq and it still wouldnt be safe here. No matter how many times they cavity search me in my SDB's while traveling, only to let the guy in the turban behind me right through at the airport, will the country ever be safe. Safer? Maybe but how do you judge it? They have new 'pledges' daily and our inteligence cant keep up. You have trucking, rail, busses, totally unregulated... or private aviation... there was a cessna that crashed into the Freaking white house like 1995ish!? The thing the American people need to be told if you really want to rule the country in fear as it has been the last couple years, is no matter how many patriot acts, no matter how many rights the government impinges, there is nothing they can do to truely 'protect you' from the terrorists, because if someone really really wants to do something, they are going to do it people, plain and simple. I'm sorry but if they are going to die anyways, I don't really think people look in the mirrior right before they are going to blow a bus up and say "hrmm maybe I shouldn't do this because I'll be breaking the law".... One final point on this which has turned into more of a rant, a sentiment which has recently become less profound, but I'm sure we all remember the days of 2004ish when we had a buddy who spoke out against Iraq, and the country labeled those people as "traitors, treasonist, idiots" How is it that the fundamental building blocks of this country have gone to sh!t.... free speech is free speech with limited adedums (you cant yell fire in a crowded building, ect)... I sorry if the administration didnt like it that they didnt have the backing of 100% of the American people, but come on, the ability to publicly express opinion is what made this country great... Everyone will always have opinions, they are like a$$ holes, everyone's got one, and they usually stink. With opinions however normally comes creativity, ideas, cognitive stimulation for problem solving. I dont care if you dont like the way I think, I am not a traitor, a treasonist, ect. I am American, and as one it is our duty to question, as a member of the fighting forces, it is our duty to follow, but also understand the implications... notice I didn't say agree. For the record I will voting for the right in the next election, I just dont think the dems have any idea what the hell they are doing...
When will the politicians listen? This country won't be safe until they stop people carrying engines from boarding planes!
It was a long sleepless night.. but you know what I meant.... Nevertheless those people carrying engines are something to be very concerned about, and I just don't see the TSA paying any attention to them... its probably because they only have 2.9oz of liquid, in a sealed 1qt clear plastic baggie
