So you want to be a CAG (but can't)...

The "who" was Naval Aviation leadership (Flag Officers).
Brett touched on one of the big "whys". The other significant factor was to ensure that each community has a sufficient opportunity to play for Flag. Since HS guys (this was before the big helo train wreck... eer Helo Master Plan) were the only helo bubbas who could get CVN command, it was determined that helo guys had ample promotion opportunity through the deep draft pipeline so they didn't NEED CAG as a possibility.

The helo guys argue that if you're going to allow VS &VAW to be a CAG, the a Helo CAG isn't much different.
But IMO, CAG should be leading the strike over the beach. Tough to do that from Plane Guard.....

Also since CAG is typically the Strike Group Strike Warfare Commander, therefore he/she needs to be very knowledgeable in Power Projection ashore, and helo guys typically are not "fluent" in that area.

1. "Leadership is leadership." Sure, but making time critical decisions at sea about alert postures, target selections, emergency recovery procedures requires intimate and extensive knowledge based on years of experience. To make the comparison that was used earlier is folly. Comparing a COCOM to a CAG is comparing apples (CAG) to big fucking oranges (COCOM). CAG is an operator - an operator who does the bidding of the COCOM and higher national command authority. That CAG had damned well better understand the ins and outs of his airwing's capabilities. Strike Group admirals are not required to be aviators - are you advocating placing someone in command of an airwing who is unfamiliar with the most dynamic mission sets and then having them work for a shoe admiral? In your case that's entirely possible - and frightening.

which leads here...

2. I've seen one (1) helo skipper who routinely stuck his head in on strike mission planning cells. He would come hang out in CATCC during recoveries. He would fly with whatever fixed wing squadrons could hook him up. He was always in AWF debriefs and, generally speaking, made a concerted effort to learn how the rest of the air wing thought, planned, briefed, and operated. Again, he was the only one. That's not an indictment of all the others, but many of them were too busy micromanaging their own DHs and trying to unscrew self inflicted injuries and unforced errors to care too much about anyone else on the O-3 level. That last sentence might ruffle some feathers as it's misinterpreted into "helo guys suck" - that is not at all what I wrote. This is a comparison between one helo guy who SHOULD be a CAG and others who were barely hanging on.

3. Ottowrote8 isn't an O-6 yet - so all of this is moot...

you've answered your own question and then went full "woe is me" mode.?.

People who had their sterotypes of helo guys busted during your anti-piracy ops were narrow minded to begin with and do not represent the rest of TACAIR. The guys in your E-2 example, c'mon, that's a red herring. The dude's who are in the CAG conversation know that mission inside and out and are the dudes with the most SA in the battle space. Most mature CVW aviators know full well the value of solid HSC and HSM crews. We know what you can bring to the fight and how we can all make each other look better. The heart of the matter is overland STRIKE warfare. It's not a matter of fairness like everything else in the Navy that has taken an egalitarian lean lately...

To me, that's pathetic and explains more about why helo guys aren't CAGs then anything else I've read. I was thinking of one guy in particular. Spectacular leader, great officer who had a phenomenal amount of understanding of carrier based aviation and how it worked (probably one of those guys that actually stuck his head in and picked brains), but he was a Phibron Commodore. He's there because you'll never see a TACAIR guy as a Phibron Commodore - but this guy's entire background was carrier aviation (HS type) and really was out of his depth in the world of amphibious operations. Likely would have made a phenomenal CAG - but again, he was a helo guy so off to amphib land he went - and again wasn't exactly the best fit.

EDIT - and by pathetic, it's pathetic that you've only seen one dude do that.

I've been a Helo Guy, both as a Small Deck "normal" HSL, and farmed out to the HS Squadron.

I've also been a Hummer guy, who contrary to what some may say, had a hell of a lot more "big picture" shit than any VFA JO I knew, and developed tactics using all airwing assets.

Helo guys are as capable as a Hummer CAG, provided they give a shit and learn about others.

I've seen numerous CAGs who don't know/care what goes on with VAW, VRC (hey, more than just cargo), HS, HSL, and they are missing the big picture. Yet, they are "Qualified" to lead them.

It's strictly a pointy nose guys not wanting to share the wealth, and saying they have people skills to deal with the fighters because the helo/hummer crowd cannot (see: Office Space).

Just my opinion. Pretty sure it's going to be a TACAIR vs Helo dick measuring contest, with us weird HummerClowns on the sidelines.. As an associate member of the TACAIR Kool Kids Club, I side with the helo guys, and am now ducking the incoming fire from the "full members" of the TACAIR club.

So no more "Big Lebowski" quotes?

This is exactly the point I was trying to make, albeit not quite as clear as you put it. In this case this helo guy should be a CAG but by default he can't even be considered.

Then educate me on what E-2 pilots do on planning? And how exactly does the E-2 pilot manage the battlespace when all of that is taking place on screens he can't even see? An E-2 pilot may have an understanding of the big picture, but so can anyone in the airwing who pays attention in briefings and planning cells.

The funny thing is that I don't give a rats ass if helo guys make CAG or not, it's just that saying a helo guy can't be a CAG by default when you yourself gave an example of a helo guy who should be CAG and can't.

Multiple generations of pointy-nosed Air Bosses, if you want to be specific. Unless we had a helo/maritime CNAF while I wasn't looking.

It is a fiefdom, and a good one to have for their community because if you don't screw it up it can easily lead to a star. Though I don't doubt there are guys from other communities who could build themselves a competent staff and do fine in the job, that doesn't necessarily guarantee that the current system is bad for the Navy. If the pointy-nosed guys couldn't muster up enough decent candidates then it would be a problem, but they can, so that eliminates one potentially valid argument. I suppose you could argue that a helo guy would bring divergent paradigms and out-of-the-box thinking to the job, but if you did make that argument I would counter with the fact that I don't think the Navy is looking for that. (And then I would tell you that you sound like a douche).

The "fairness" argument, on the other hand, is just stupid*. If you want the full range of career options available to you in the Navy then don't go helos. It's as simple as that. The Navy doesn't owe you the chance to be a CAG - if that is important to you then I'd do whatever it takes to not go helos.




* And no, don't try to throw out the affirmative action comparison here. If you are smart enough to be in this discussion then you ought to be smart enough to tell the difference between somebody being born female or selecting RW out of primary.

Gotta disagree with the thought as you state it.
If you are talking about "levels of war" then I would agree. Since leaders at the Operational Level all succeeded at the Tactical Level, it makes sense.

But your as I interpret your post, I have yet to meet many Navy TACAIR pilot who understands helos. Hell, 50% of the guys I've deployed with couldn't tell you the differences between the 60B, 60F and 60H and the HS, HSL, & HC communities. Helo guys tended to have more of a clue about fixed wings ops then fixed wing guys have of "fling wing" ops

Is there nothing better to do on a perfectly good Friday night than argue on the internets? Is this really as good as it gets for Naval Aviation?

This is a riot...yet I find myself weeping...

Fair enough, but bert put it better than any of the rest of us. It's the way it is because it's the way it is.

Yup, when you got three little kids this is about as exciting as it gets!

I didn't say they couldn't. I've clearly stated that IOT be qualified, helo CO's have got to do more than all but the one I referenced.

sure he can. and probably will be, considered. will he be selected?

and to your point about anyone in the airwing having the ability to build, maintain, enhance, and distribute SA during a strike because they sat through a brief.... in my best Chris Berman voice, "c'mon man".....

Normally, scrub the airspace/altitude plans to make sure they jive, nobody put a tanker track in a WEZ, and try to correlate SAFIRE reports.
I've had to explain to VFA "Superstars" why they can't do certain things, like refuel in Iranian Airspace.
Basically, me, and most other VAW pilots acted as a big "sanity check".

Personally, I also did a lot of the Helo/SSC/ASW planning, because I had experience in it. YMMV. Me and an Ex-VS guy did a lot of the SSC stuff.

THIS.

I'm doing it in between packing for my 7 day Western Carribean cruise on the Norwegian Star. Suckas!!

Caveat: Not a CVW guy.

To answer Revan's question a little better, CAG is not just one man. He has a staff of SMEs to assist him in his decision making. Amongst these staffers are HSM and HSC reps to help with the helo questions. I'm fairly certain he has reps from the other communities as well to help CAG address issues that aren't covered by his past experience. In addition to the CAG reps, he also has two helo squadrons worth of of experienced officers who can assist. Reasons like these and the ones addressed above are why staffs exist, to support The Man.

Thanks Pags. And thank you gentlemen for the interesting debate that came out of my question. It's actually really illuminating for me to see the various points of view and points of contention on the topic. I had no idea it was such a hot topic (not that kind...).

I like hearing about, learning about, and understanding the big picture stuff. I know I'm a young, inexperienced guy with zero fleet experience, so I really appreciate the answers and the debate going on around my question. I know my primary responsibility now is to learn my aircraft, learn how to fight it, and learn how to be a junior officer. I think it's important that us junior guys have an idea how the big picture works. I'm here to learn, and the debates are much more interesting than just a bland one-sentence answer.

Yes, the debates are much more interesting than just a bland one-sentence answer.

I think that's the whole point. I would contend that despite the high rank CAG is still a pretty specialized job, at least compared to a MEF commander.

One thing to remember is helo guys still stand _P and _R watch stations and were expected to at least generally understand what the airwing was doing. One lesson learned though was to make sure that two helo guys were not scheduled for the same time.

Will you come off it, Walter? You're not even F'ing Jewish, man.

And to add more to this, while the mission of the CVW may be strike, don't forget that to accomplish a strike mission the boat still has to safely get to an operating area, through contested waters, etc. To this end, CAG still has to be prepared to accomplish ASUW/ASW missions to protect the carrier/CSG or to accomplish assigned tasking that may be other than strike (IBB and CVW-1's anti-piracy ops, HADR, etc).