So much for no "forced" Nukes...

Like I said, I understand the diversity thing. If they are short a rather large number of candidates from one source then yea, give some of them their 2nd or 3rd choice. However, If they are only short 20-30 slots or so it's not going to change the diversity so much that ALL the Officers are "prior Enlisted" (and I use that term rather loosely for a Baby Nuke, their only "Naval Experience" is in school).

I completely understand that the needs of the Navy come first and that one source shouldn't be singled out for "punishment" or whatever. However, if there are people that WANT to do it, why deny them and then FORCE someone else to? I haven't met one Enlisted Nuke that was forced to be one. They chose their enlisted rate. Even if they are forced to apply for STA-21 as a Baby Nuke, they are staying in the field they CHOSE in the first place. Besides, it's no problem for any STA-21 selectee to deny their acceptance and stay Enlisted, and there is always an alternate chomping at the bit to fill that void.

Again, I'm talking about small numbers, not a gross undermanning.

Are they? So far 3/30 of my classmates in my company (3/24) male ones have been "drafted" into subs on top of the ones that already volunteered. Sure seems like the nuke "draft" is in full force here.

Why do you insist on calling it a "draft?" You volunteered to go to the USNA. I suppose if someone was really upset about getting "drafted" into the submarine force, they could always DOR and enlist in lieu of paying back their tuition. They gave an OC that option here (he thought he should be allowed to go SWO nuke, but they needed sub guys - he declined that option and will be on a sub shortly). But I think it's made pretty clear at all phases of training and recruiting that the needs of the Navy always come first. It may not personally thrill someone that they don't get their first choice of community, but that's not what being a Naval Officer is all about. It is an office of public service, and in our case it's an office we volunteered for, the draft ended in 1973.

I'm pretty sure STA-21 nukes still have to interview with the Admiral. I know a couple of people who got nuke option and then ended up not being nukes after their interview. One ended up pilot, the other failed his commissioning physical anyways.

+10000

I believe you are correct about the STA-21 Nuke options having interviews before commission, not sure if the circumstances are the same though. My point is; a Nuke-select doesn't look at an interview the same way. To them it is just a check in the block. For everyone else it's like being forced to playing russian roullette with their career after being selected for something else. The only OC's that talked about Nuke interviews were prior Nukes, but selected for Pilot. They were much more vocal about having to do the interview because they didn't want to go Nuke and were understandably frustrated during that time, but they ended up commissioning as SNAs.

Thats exactly the point though. You weren't forced to play the game. You willingly sat down at the table the second you took that ROTC Scholarship.

And I would hardly argue that you have much of a career at all until you've made it through either program.

Being selected for pilot is like a handshake. Its a firm offer thats not in writing. Until its in writing, it don't mean shit. You volunteered knowing full well that there was a chance you would be going nuke. If you had absolutely zero desire to go nuke, you should have thought twice about signing the contract.

:icon_zbee
On the bright side they're paying out $30K a year bonuses once you qualify engineer. Not that it makes it all ok, but I think some cash can temper the pain a bit.

Notice how the only people who are vocally supporting the nuke draft on aw (and yes, it is a draft) were previously an EM. You are correct in the fact that we did volunteer to serve our country as Naval officers. The plain and simple fact though is that the submarine force has ALWAYS been all volunteer. When the individuals who were drafted for nuke volunteered to go to USNA or join NROTC, they presumably did so with the knowledge that subs are all volunteer. This is no longer the case.

I really feel like the quality of the submarine force will go down if this continues. Retention will plummet, and this solution is really only benefitting the Navy in the short term. I mean think about it, forcing an individual into a community that they have absolutely no desire to serve in, and then hoping that they sign on to get kicked in the nuts again after their initial commitment is over? Not happening...

Submarines is volunteer, nuke is not. tough shit. deal with it. And even then, nuke officers can be forced nuke. Responsibility of the commission.

It's the common term here, thus I use it. Even the officers doing here often refer to it as that. And while you're right on a lot of things, we don't have the option of choosing to go enlisted or paying back; the SECNAV is the one who decides for us and there seems to be no consistent trend really. And I suppose it got its name as "the draft" because the needs of the Navy are making someone do something they would rather not do... Volunteer, yeah, we all did, I agree, but inevitably you can't deny that some people don't want to do it and yet are being forced to. I know that's in the contract, but it's going to get bad vibes. And it's not necessarily that people don't want to do it - plenty of people have been denied nuke that had it high on their choices. It's just frustrating when you're here for 4 years and you're told that hard work and good performance will get you where you want to be, then some of the hardest workers with the best grades are being forced into something they did not want (or would rather prefer not to do). When you make people do something in the name of service, wouldn't that be called a "draft?" We're arguing semantics here: point is people are forced to do things they don't want to. Yes, it's part of our service, but if you're going to argue semantics, don't call nukes or subs "all volunteer."

I'm not talking about the Academy, NROTC, OCS, or STA-21 Core. Those sources require a "dream sheet" for designator and there is no certainty you will get the designator you want.

That is a stereotypical Nuke response. Is it impossible for you to understand the context in which I used the word "career"? Let me clarify for you: By career, I mean career field, as in designator, not their entire time of service.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have never seen anything in writing that says a STA-21 Pilot Option selectee may have to go Nuclear because they were a prior Enlisted Nuke. It does say in writing that STA-21 Pilot options are selected as SNAs.

Directly from the STA-21 website: "While STA-21 will continue to provide the opportunity for Pilot designation as other URL designators, graduates of STA-21 Pilot Option will be designated only as Student Naval Aviators (SNA) (Designator 1390)." The instruction says the same thing.

Sorry, nothing there about the possibility of going nuke. I didn't volunteer "knowing full well" that there was a chance I would go nuke, and I'm pretty sure that the other STA-21 Pilot options didn't either. As long as the selectee maintains they requirements for SNA, and there isn't any drastic, unforseen circumstances, they will be an SNA.

But obviously I'm not nearly as dedicated or honorable as you are because I'm not willing to just bend over and spread 'em if they try to force me into another designator after having already been selected. I obviously didn't work my butt off and do my homework to give myself the best possible chance of living a childhood dream. Get your facts straight before implying that I'm not dedicated to service.

1) This thread is about the academy.

2) I never implied that, don't put words in my mouth.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've remember hearing from someone that the Virginia class was actually designed with the possibility of coed quarters in mind so it won't require a new class... 688's definitely look out of the question though

People have a right to be frustrated about being forced into the nuke program; there is nothing inappropriate about that. They also have the obligation to do their best if that is where the Navy decides to send them.

To the prior enlisted; as an EM, how would you have felt after finishing A school if you were told that you were going to be an MS for the rest of your time in the Navy?

Hmmmm, looks like the discussion shifted a little. I'm assuming you were part of it...unless someone else was posing as you.

Your words, not mine. "I should have known full well...If I had zero desire to go nuke, I should have thought twice..." What am I supposed to imply from that? If it wasn't a shot at me, what was it?

I wasn't commissioned through the Academy or NROTC scholarship. The conditions for STA-21 are different. There are target options people get selected for and prior nukes that got picked up for other designators are being forced to do a nuke interview with the possibility of being sent back as a nuke O. I didn't have to worry about it because I wasn't a nuke, but I still think it sucks and threw an idea out there about increasing the number of STA-21 Nuke selections to help fill the gap in accessions with people that actually wanted to be Nuke Os instead of making a bunch of other people miserable.

+1 million!

Take it easy man. I would be a little upset if suddenly they made me supply corps. Very few people want to be a nuke, let them be mad about it. They have every reason to be upset.
There was always a chance that it can happen. But there is also the chance that you will walk out the front door and get shot in the vas deferens with a salt tipped cross bow arrow. And if that were to happen, I don't think you would lay down and think, 'well it could have happened, I guess I was taking this chance every time I walked outside.'

I thought I covered this already!

Oops! Missed that. Sorry, the credit for the idea goes to you!

Just easin' the tension baby, just easin' the tension..." HAPPY GILMORE

I have some fellow JOs pulled from other communities who would disagree with you...

Being forced into sub service is what most people are referring to when they say the "nuke draft," since that's what's happening right now.

Now, if you could be a good nuke and please point me to the reference where it says in the contract that USNA MIDN are obligated to serve as sub nukes should the needs of the Navy dictate they must, that NROTC MIDN must list sub nuke on their preference sheet no matter what, or that the "responsibility of my commission" is to serve as whatever officer the Navy might decide is best on a whim?

It's all in the hips, yea!

...well ease it on someone else!

As far as I know, they aren't. Even if they are, the designs would be another ten years off at least. Nothing's out of the question I suppose, but I think they'll want to see how the Ohio Classes turn out and go from there.

I went down on the Virginia and looked around a bit when she pulled into Kings Bay during sea trials and I don't see how you could retrofit something like that, but I understand she's modular, and built on drop in technology, so I guess anything is possible.

Long and short, I don't know. But I do know a couple Ohio Classes will be coed probably by the time I hit the fleet again.

There's a bubble heads blog spot place out there that has a lot more info on how this will probably play out over the next few years. I'd put a link up, but I'm not sure if that's allowed, I'm sure you can find it though.

Hope that helps. Any time I can give you vague non-answers, you just let me know