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Sidearms for Naval Aviators

wlawr005

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Looks like in addition to the Marine Corps moving from M9 to the MHS, Navy is on board as well with aircrew M11's

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/05/02/us-navy-air-force-order-the-xm18-compact-mhs

xm18-mhs-1200.jpg
Navy Aircrew have been carrying that since 2002
 

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
Navy Aircrew have been carrying that since 2002

The M11's in service since early 2000's will be retired and replaced with the M18 (M18 is pictured). Will be a lighter package and of course just cool factor improvement!
 
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HappyHook

ACDU '79-'08, Naval Aviator, Command (ret), CFII
Uhhh - Johnny come lately here - I guess you found out in the decade since you asked about aviators' favorite fly-aboard personal sidearm (hard to say it and not start laughing)... So: No way. Or, in the vernacular: "No chance, paddles" -

Either you had to be sarcastic, else you were quite the greenhorned newb to ask it back then... And while this is an ancient thread, the question was so.. ludicrous - after a quarter century flying military, I had to say something that only a few others seemed to get. Just to get it down in case someone else stumbles on this "consideration" -

Brett327 said it most clearly. There is no debate, no even discussing a preferred sidearm - cuz you don't get to choose. You get a govt issue sidearm, and sneaking in your own is a court martial offense equivalent to a felony. ...unless something changed in the last decade in some amazing way.

When one goes to sea to fly "green time" (combat time) - that's generally when you get an issue one, to lock in your safe in your stateroom (I heard some boats/airwings require pickup at the armory or ready room), to only remove to fly with.

We flew with govt issue .45 ACP (I far prefer), and then bleh 9mm. from 70s til 2008, used them when issued, with a single woe. Gunners mates (or whatever the rating is now) pride themselves on not giving you crap. Like a Pararigger, they know the weapon is there for your survival. All were decent pistols, not made rattly and loose by being range weapons.

There are alotta reasons why Uncle Sam cringes even at the thought of personally owned and flown sidearms, some include - no verification of quality, safety, common rounds, trace-ability, etc. They don't let you buy or pack your own chute in your seat for your own good - so why would they let you chose your own ammo, weapon, and security plan? Scare them more if you do your own reloads (and are not SF/SOF).

Heck - if the Navy would never let you bring a laptop onto a ship or base and connect it to the GIG/NIPRNET lest you have a chat with the 2-
star, ...and to boot, no thumb drives or smart watches in any classified space. Now, up the ante to pistols - ya think firearms would be welcome? heh.

In the Military you use issue equipment, including sidearms (despite the stories).

Remember also - carriers have particularly sensitive aspects regarding weapons. But just like a base, you cannot bring ANY firearm on any US base without identifying it at the gate, then depending on that base procedure, have the armory meet you or you go there, to lock your stuff up. Til you leave. Even here in Arizona <wink>. Bases and boats = high security and AT/FP. In fact I would not even ask the above attention-getting question lately.

A last thought. Maybe they gave you some perspective if you went to SERE school, or elsewhere. Don't think the aviator's sidearm is some holy solution to your protection if you punch out in a hostile land. Judicious use consideration (even if it WERE your magic personal pistol), or even possession, is as much to think about as anything. Your goal is evasion and return to friendlies, not play soldier once on the deck. Many people carry sidearms as issued, but wish some other weight were in their SV-2 (or whatever is flown now) that would be far more appropriate in evasion (covert) survival... There was a joke once about the real extent of sidearm value: how much money a sidearm would take in a trade, to get a camel ride to friendly territory - heh heh.

Make smart decisions - and good luck wherever you are now. And if you enjoy the perennial debate on home defense or carry, concealed carry, off boats and bases, why it's Arizona and I have plent to then discuss <wink>
 
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JohnFourtyTwo

New Member
Another Johnny Come Lately, great post by the way. Just wanted to add about the personal vs issue firearms. I was the Operations Yeoman for VFA 151 Vigilantes onboard USS MIDWAY (CV 41) 1990-1992 and our Air Wing (CAG 5) was given permission to use personal firearms if they desired. Most of the pilots in my squadron and a few other squadrons group-ordered brand new Ruger P89 pistols directly from Ruger. My squadron got delivery first and our PRs custom-made holsters for them because the holster for the .38s wouldn't work. They kept their weapons in their stateroom safe or the safe inside the Operations Office in the Ready Room; every square inch of space was being using in that office safe for weapons storage and every now and then when you opened the safe one of the pistols would fall out.

The other squadrons were very envious and couldn't wait for theirs to come in, unfortunately they didn't arrive until after the first Gulf War and had been stolen by some SNs and ANs working in Supply during their mess-cranking tour. They were stealing all kinds of stuff that was coming in. They had been storing all their loot in the back of a storeroom including the stereo system our Maintenance Officer had been waiting on, all the missing weapons, khaki flight suits, and all kinds of other stuff. They found one guy wearing a khaki flight suit, listening to the Maintenance Officer's stereo system, playing with one of the Rugers, reading a stolen Playboy magazine, and eating someone's care package down in the storeroom.

The weapons came through the U.S. Mail as registered but for some reason these guys were able to intercept the mail because they were being used as mail handers also. After the feces hit the rotary device a lot of heads rolled. The thieves were all kicked out of the Navy and new procedures were put in place for the use of non-Postal Supply personnel handling mail.
 

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
I just qualed on the M17 three weeks ago. It was a brand new, never fired gun used on a new firing table. There were three magazines with ten rounds each, 30 pop-up targets in total. You shoot the first ten rounds at ten targets while standing. There is a ten second pause. You change magazines and kneel during the pause. You then shoot ten rounds at ten targets kneeling. Pause for ten seconds again, change magazines and stand. The next two rounds are fired at two targets while standing. Then you start walking forward while shooting the remaining eight rounds at eight more pop up targets.

It was fun and pretty easy. Out of 30, I missed two and didn't fire a third because I was a bit unfamiliar with the safety during the first transition. FWIW, they REQUIRED us to place the weapon on safe during each transition.

The table is much better than the buffoonery of the old M9 tables, with one, five and seven round magazines and several complete stops during the sub-tables. The new table is done in five minutes tops.
 

wlawr005

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
I forgot they had a safety installed per the contract. I thought it was odd considering the M11 only had a decocking lever.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
^ would be awesome if the Navy adopted that pistol and that qual process.
The whole DoD is adopting the M-17/M-18 platform, and we don’t need popup targets. The pistol qual is basically to make sure you can safely manipulate the controls of the weapon and put rounds on a human-shaped target within 15 yards. We already have another practical handgun qual for NIACT players, MAs, and anyone else who needs to demonstrate shoot-and-move.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m on record several times here with my dismay about the utterly abysmal firearms culture in the Navy as an institution, but adopting the Army tables aren’t going to fix it.

What would fix it are people treating personal weapons the way they should be treated. A big responsibility that requires a mature and well-adjusted Sailor and decent ORM, but something that’s within the abilities of the majority of the force to handle if trained properly. Instead we have “ooga booga, evil scary guns are scary, no one should ever have a Condition I weapon ever.” :rolleyes:
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The whole DoD is adopting the M-17/M-18 platform, and we don’t need popup targets. The pistol qual is basically to make sure you can safely manipulate the controls of the weapon and put rounds on a human-shaped target within 15 yards. We already have another practical handgun qual for NIACT players, MAs, and anyone else who needs to demonstrate shoot-and-move.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m on record several times here with my dismay about the utterly abysmal firearms culture in the Navy as an institution, but adopting the Army tables aren’t going to fix it.

What would fix it are people treating personal weapons the way they should be treated. A big responsibility that requires a mature and well-adjusted Sailor and decent ORM, but something that’s within the abilities of the majority of the force to handle if trained properly. Instead we have “ooga booga, evil scary guns are scary, no one should ever have a Condition I weapon ever.” :rolleyes:
Mostly agree. But I firmly believe that if you want to change the culture expecting more from the peeps is a good place to start. You will never get big Navy to trust it's people with personal weapons if they don't demonstrate a high level of competency. You can't ask for more carry options, authority, and respect, and only demonstrate how to load and put a round down range safely. That qual is only appropriate for the current policies. What most of us would like to see in the Navy's approach to personal weapons absolutely requires shoot and scoot and judgmental shooting training because an armed sailor may find a need for those skills even in a simple defensive scenario.
 

0621 Hertz

Well-Known Member
29167

I think Soldiers walking around the capital without magazines looks incredibly stupid, it looks like their CO has no confidence in them with a condition 3 weapon whatsoever.
 

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
View attachment 29167

I think Soldiers walking around the capital without magazines looks incredibly stupid, it looks like their CO has no confidence in them with a condition 3 weapon whatsoever.
My guess is the condition is more about optics - especially given that most of these folks are NG. There wasn't an imminent threat that required condition 3 - they do have loaded mags which is good.
 
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