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Raw Meat Category: Is anyone else pissed that we're

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
Right now the argument against the construction of the field boils down to "terrorists shouldn't get soccer fields," right?

1) Most of them aren't terrorists.
2) Treating POWs (for lack of a better term) well has precedence.
3) The soccer field is only for "highly compliant" detainees.

From your article: ..."Most were low-level fighters affiliated with al-Qaeda or other groups in Afghanistan..." So they fought alongside AQ? Questions?

also

"It is important to emphasize that a decision to approve a detainee for transfer does not reflect a decision that a detainee poses no threat or no risk of recidivism," the report says.

Call 'em what you want dude....
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Can we maybe get a citation for the "outrage?" To the media, the only thing that happens at GITMO is that people become detainees. It was common to hear "Obama is closing GITMO!" when it was really only the camps he was concerned about. Never mind the bajillion other Squid, Coasties and Marines running around there supporting the theater. Before I'd get upset, I'd want to know what the facility is actually being built/used for.
 

pilot_man

Ex-Rhino driver
pilot
Right now the argument against the construction of the field boils down to "terrorists shouldn't get soccer fields," right?

1) Most of them aren't terrorists.
2) Treating POWs (for lack of a better term) well has precedence.
3) The soccer field is only for "highly compliant" detainees.


Why don't you go explain to the families of the couple of thousand American casualties from the last few years that their loved ones weren't killed by terrorist, just low level fighters?

You are a tool!
 

helolumpy

Apprentice School Principal
pilot
Contributor
$750k won't buy shit here in CONUS from a MILCON perspective.

It would by some window air conditioners for my shops that were over 90 degrees in the summer. It will pay for new carpeting in my squadron to replace the carpet that has been in the Navy longer than I have. We could replace some of the windows in the hangar door so now as many birds get in over night and crap on my aircraft. But, if we really need to keep the soccer field construction wokers employed, I've played soccer on a few bases that had really crappy fields. How about we build a new field on one of our bases?

While we won't be able to get some big-ticket items, my point is this. Why are we giving our enemies better living conditions than we give our own troops who are fighting said enemy?
 

eas7888

Looking forward to some P-8 action
pilot
Contributor
Why don't you go explain to the families of the couple of thousand American casualties from the last few years that their loved ones weren't killed by terrorist, just low level fighters?

You are a tool!

Kind of a tangent, but at what point do you draw the line between a terrorist and an enemy combatant?
 

mmx1

Woof!
pilot
Contributor
Why don't you go explain to the families of the couple of thousand American casualties from the last few years that their loved ones weren't killed by terrorist, just low level fighters?

You are a tool!

Because they were not. Terrorism is a form of violence distinct from warfare, usually defined as against civilians, noncombatants, or some other measure of distinction from combat forces. The rank and file Taliban are not terrorists by definition, though some associated groups like the Haqqani network utilize terrorism as a method.

The distinction is important, because it recognizes that we see killing civilians, or members of the military not engaged in hostilities (i.e. the Cole or the Khobar Towers bombing) is an illegitimate form of violence separate from warfare. If you wrap 9/11 and an IED of an armed patrol under the same category, then the term terrorism means nothing, and you are legitimating violence against civilians by claiming it's equivalent to violence against combatants.

The people at Guantanamo are, for the most part exactly detainees - people we have seized (mostly) on the field of battle, but who we have done a piss-poor job of ascertaining their intelligence value or participation in schemes against the United States. We know there were detainees who were snached up in mass sweeps by the Northern Alliance. We know there were detainees who have secured their release because they were wrongly detained.

So labeling them as terrorists and enemies and demanding to punish, mistreat and torture them because some 30% of them had significant ties to Al-Qaeda, is simply wrong. You want to punish them? Ascertain their guilt first.

You are a fool.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
So labeling them as terrorists and enemies and demanding to punish, mistreat and torture them because some 30% of them had significant ties to Al-Qaeda, is simply wrong. You want to punish them? Ascertain their guilt first.

You are a fool.
I think you kind of missed his point, almost reinforced it. His point is that no matter how we (the government/military) define terrorism vs. lawful combatant doesn't matter to the family members of someone who lost their life. Their loved one is still dead, and no matter how detailed a definition of the finer points of the LOAC you go into won't bring them back, and that all they see is that we are building a $750,000 soccer stadium for someone who may or may not been involved in the death of their loved one.

Although I didn't realize punishment/mistreatment/torture was equated to NOT building them a new soccer field. Under that auspice - what happens when their cable goes out? Congressional hearings as to why the lack of basic cable is inhumane and torture?

Whatever.
 

pilot_man

Ex-Rhino driver
pilot
Because they were not. Terrorism is a form of violence distinct from warfare, usually defined as against civilians, noncombatants, or some other measure of distinction from combat forces. The rank and file Taliban are not terrorists by definition, though some associated groups like the Haqqani network utilize terrorism as a method.

The distinction is important, because it recognizes that we see killing civilians, or members of the military not engaged in hostilities (i.e. the Cole or the Khobar Towers bombing) is an illegitimate form of violence separate from warfare. If you wrap 9/11 and an IED of an armed patrol under the same category, then the term terrorism means nothing, and you are legitimating violence against civilians by claiming it's equivalent to violence against combatants.

The people at Guantanamo are, for the most part exactly detainees - people we have seized (mostly) on the field of battle, but who we have done a piss-poor job of ascertaining their intelligence value or participation in schemes against the United States. We know there were detainees who were snached up in mass sweeps by the Northern Alliance. We know there were detainees who have secured their release because they were wrongly detained.

So labeling them as terrorists and enemies and demanding to punish, mistreat and torture them because some 30% of them had significant ties to Al-Qaeda, is simply wrong. You want to punish them? Ascertain their guilt first.

You are a fool.

Oh, MMX1, you are a wise sage. Thank you for your essay on the difference between a terrorist and an enemy combatant. What would I do without you?

Why don't you learn how to read English? As phrogpilot73 has pointed out, I DON'T GIVE A SHIT WHAT YOU CALL THEM. These are not just nice, old, Afghan farmers who were in their fields and minding their own business. There are reasons for detaining each and every one of them. You are speaking out your ass, like usual. 30% huh? You think we just go get a dude and hope he was a bad guy? What the fuck? Your ignorance is humbling. The fact that you and I have the same wings almost brings me to tears. I thought our weed-out process was better than that. You see MMX, the difference between the two of us is I've actually been there and seen the intelligence on these guys. I've watched them in action. And I've watched our guys risk their lives to go roll them up. You on the other hand, are just a troll. And a dick.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
sea lawyering nonsense

you and your boy Squorch need to read / comprehend your talking points a little better...

From your article: ..."Most were low-level fighters affiliated with al-Qaeda or other groups in Afghanistan..." So they fought alongside AQ? Questions?

also

"It is important to emphasize that a decision to approve a detainee for transfer does not reflect a decision that a detainee poses no threat or no risk of recidivism," the report says.

Call 'em what you want dude....


What part of "...affiliated with AQ..." is so hard for you to grasp? Phrogpilot hit the nail on the head - your post did nothing but solidify PilotMan's point. To your point about many of them being Northern Alliance and being summarily rounded up and wrongly detained - dude, seriously, before you call someone a fool do a little more reading and realize just how many of those types have been released. You may be surprised.

And please, please, please tell me that I read your post incorrectly, but it sure seems like you equate not building them better exercise facilities is tantamount to
punish[ment], mistreat and torture
 

mmx1

Woof!
pilot
Contributor
I think you kind of missed his point, almost reinforced it. His point is that no matter how we (the government/military) define terrorism vs. lawful combatant doesn't matter to the family members of someone who lost their life. Their loved one is still dead, and no matter how detailed a definition of the finer points of the LOAC you go into won't bring them back, and that all they see is that we are building a $750,000 soccer stadium for someone who may or may not been involved in the death of their loved one.

So what's your point, that grief is a carte blanche to play fast and loose with how we treat people? That it doesn't make a difference whether or not they were involved in the death of Americans? That sounds awfully and dangerously close to the justification Faisal Shazad (and other Pakistanis) made to use the death of innocent Pakistanis in drone strikes to justify attacking unrelated Americans.

I am not equating soccer field to punishment/mistreatment/torture, but when you start blanket accusations of terrorism, that's the road you go down. It's OK to do X,Y,Z to them because they're just terrorists. As C420's water boarding wisecrack amply shows. They're detainees. And if you want to treat them like terrorists, you owe it to yourself to determine if they are - something Republicans have fought tooth and nail.

The fact is that just as there have been the worst of the worst, there have also been innocent bystanders in Guantanamo, released on the order of military judges who have seen the intelligence. And a lot of people in-between. And the hard question is what we do with people we're not certain about. Because it should make you uncomfortable that our government can lock someone away indefinitely, and you should demand a level of certainly that they deserve it, and not write off the lot (or exonerate the lot) based on one or two individual examples.

Pilot_man, let's be honest. What do you really know about the detainees actually at Guantanamo? How many of those "bad dudes" you've seen in theater ended up in Gitmo? Because the problem set we're dealing with are not the folks we've captured in the last few years after we've largely figured out our intelligence and detainee processes. The problem set are folks captured in the first few years of the GWOT, based on weak evidence, and who, 10 years later, we still shamefully haven't figured out what to do with.

The Guantanamo Review Task force reviewed all the intelligence, and recommended 36 be prosecuted, 48 be detained indefinitely under the laws of war for affiliation with Al-Qaeda, and 126 be released or transferred. That is a damn broad category to dismiss under the label of "terrorist" - and the full quote, LSO is:
"For a handful of detainees cleared for transfer, there was scant evidence of any involvement with terrorist groups, the report says. Most were low-level fighters affiliated with al-Qaeda or other groups in Afghanistan"
 
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