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NSW Standardizing on Glock 19

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
I am not sure I like this decision (and I am certain MARSOC doesn't care if I like it!). The 9mm is an anemic round and I saw guys in Iraq and Afghanistan load up with as many as 100 pistol rounds on any given patrol. That is too much. If you can't hit it in 10 or 20 rounds, throw your pistol at it...you will be just as effective.

1. It's a pistol - last ditch weapon so you can fight to your rifle
2. Modern 124 and 147 grain (not +P) in my opinion easily get the job done in putting holes in our target (or keeping heads down)
3. It's a pistol.

As far as the military handgun program, I'm all for, immediately buying 1.4 million Glock 19's and calling the whole thing done for 20 years!
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I am not sure I like this decision (and I am certain MARSOC doesn't care if I like it!). The 9mm is an anemic round and I saw guys in Iraq and Afghanistan load up with as many as 100 pistol rounds on any given patrol. That is too much. If you can't hit it in 10 or 20 rounds, throw your pistol at it...you will be just as effective.
I've said it before. They're doing the same thing the rest of SOCOM is doing. I'm not privy to any of the backstory, but it doesn't surprise me at all that once the majority of SOCOM units went to the Glock, that everyone else in that enterprise was probably "encouraged" to fall in line due to economies of scale. Having everyone on the same sheet of music I'm sure eased purchasing and saved someone somewhere in Tampa a significant amount of their budget.
 

TexasForever

Well-Known Member
pilot
That... and significant progress has been made in manufacturing, safety, reliability, ballistics and lethality in the last 105 years. Sure, I'd love to have a Model T to drive around every once in a while but I'd hate to have to use one day in and day out to get around.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
That... and significant progress has been made in manufacturing, safety, reliability, ballistics and lethality in the last 105 years. Sure, I'd love to have a Model T to drive around every once in a while but I'd hate to have to use one day in and day out to get around.

Cute, but I think you are being a little glib about technology. A 2016 Glock uses the exact same fundamental mechanism to fire a round than a 105 year old 1911. I have carried both in combat and the 1911A2 is a superior pistol in every way except cost-per-round. SOC elements love to blaze away with their pistols (and rifles) and I imagine this is more a cost savings effort than a combat multiplier.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
The F-18 uses the exact same fundamental mechanism to fly that the Spad did. Or if you wan to quibble about power, the exact same mechanism that the F-80 did. But if I'm going to roll around in the dirt/wet/mud, I'd trust a F-18 far more than a 1911.

Or something like that.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
I am not sure I like this decision (and I am certain MARSOC doesn't care if I like it!). The 9mm is an anemic round and I saw guys in Iraq and Afghanistan load up with as many as 100 pistol rounds on any given patrol. That is too much. If you can't hit it in 10 or 20 rounds, throw your pistol at it...you will be just as effective.

I'm trying to think of what scenario would have you get in that big of a pistol shootout when you're already carrying a rifle. I mean, yes, you may get a stoppage on your primary, but still.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
The F-18 uses the exact same fundamental mechanism to fly that the Spad did. Or if you wan to quibble about power, the exact same mechanism that the F-80 did. But if I'm going to roll around in the dirt/wet/mud, I'd trust a F-18 far more than a 1911.

Or something like that.

And how many times have you flown a Spad, F-80, or F-18 in air-to-air combat? More importantly, you are missing my point. It is less about the pistol than about the round. A Spad S.VII utilized a .303 round. The F-80 used a superior .50 cal round. Step forward a few generations and the push was to get rid of guns on jets entirely...until they needed them, again, and now your F-18 carries a 20 mm gun based on a mid-19th Century design - because it is superior.

At this point, for us, it is all opinion. Some people like to shoot a lot and shoot fast so they prefer the 9mm. Some people like to shoot slower and keep their target down for good so they prefer the .45. Cops like Glocks because they are taught a rapid fire method that runs close to 10 rounds in 4 seconds and you won't get that waste out of a 1911A1. As for the SOC community others here are right, it is less about lethality and more about economies of scale. Our conventional forces use 9mm, so we use 9mm. Our allies use 9mm, so we use 9mm.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I'm not really missing your point. The 9mm is now a very effective round that weighs less and allows for a larger capacity. The 1911 is a solid weapon but is much more temperamental in non-range conditions, all while being much larger. Keep in mind that it's only the conventional forces that still get issued ball. Cops and everyone else have much better options that make the 9mm a solid option.
 

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Glock 19 has a 15+1 round capacity.
Colt 1911 has a 7+1 round capacity.
Not hard to get close to 100 pistol rounds carrying extra Glock magazines.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I'm not really missing your point. The 9mm is now a very effective round that weighs less and allows for a larger capacity. The 1911 is a solid weapon but is much more temperamental in non-range conditions, all while being much larger. Keep in mind that it's only the conventional forces that still get issued ball. Cops and everyone else have much better options that make the 9mm a solid option.
And 1911s are known for often needing extra tweaking to feed JHPs reliably. Glocks? Not so much.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
In early 2016 the Chief of Staff of the Army made it clear that he did not like the pistol testing that circumvented his picking the weapon. A few weeks later he asked USASOC if he could add conventional army pistol purchases to their Glock contract. Oddly enough, in the following months all sorts of end-users start leaning toward the Glock. The rub of all of this is that the whole XM17 MHS program was based finding a "more powerful" round than the 9mm. NATO wasn't too happy since they equip all NATO forces with 9mm pistols and don't want to change because of...cost.

I spent two years in Iraq and two in Afghanistan, all of it working with SOF, infantry, and cavalry units. All of them considered the 9mm a pathetic round and certainly the M9 a deeply flawed weapon system. The Glock buy is one of economy of scale...keep the allies happy, keep the stock piles relavent.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I spent two years in Iraq and two in Afghanistan, all of it working with SOF, infantry, and cavalry units. All of them considered the 9mm a pathetic round and certainly the M9 a deeply flawed weapon system. The Glock buy is one of economy of scale...keep the allies happy, keep the stock piles relavent.

We all have our anecdotes. I think you one just needs to be careful when one starts talking about what ammo is used and the unit that's using it, even when talking about SOF. FWIW, the G19 has been around with in certain SOF communities for over 10 years now, long before Big SOC started buying it.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
FWIW, the G19 has been around with in certain SOF communities for over 10 years now, long before Big SOC started buying it.

I misspoke. It was G22s. I misunderstood an anecdote that was conveyed to me this weekend.
 
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