Some Shooter students were transferred to VT-2 to help out their student load and this question came up at the meeting. T-6 guys are not compared to T-34 guys at all. If you are flying the T-6 at VT-2, your NSS is calculated using "historical data" also known as "notionals". That will continue to happen until VT-2 completes the requisite 60 students needed to derive a "proper" NSS. I believe that VT-6 has just recently completed the 60 students needed to stop using the "notionals".
You pretty much just figured out exactly how the NSS works. I'm aware of that. I was simply referring to the fact that what you've pointed out doesn't exactly make a 'T34 NSS' vs. 'T6B NSS' an "all else equal" situation when it comes time to selecting jets (which, if we're all honest, is exactly why the NSS exists). Hence, the inherent error. A few examples: -The NSS is currently comparing students from a new, more-or-less experimental program that uses an airplane that flies 300+ KIAS to a well-established program (with plenty of solid gouge out there) that uses an airplane that flies 180KIAS with it fire-walled. One can definitely argue that the slower you go, the more time you have and, therefore, the easier things are. One can also argue that the T6B will prepare studs much better for jet advanced than a T34 would. -The NSS also doesn't take into account instructor grading tendencies. If stud A and stud B are completely equal but 'A' flies his first RI block (or whatever) with a "Santa Claus grader" while 'B' flies with a "MIF-monster" then stud B when inherently have a lower NSS. We'd all like to think, and argue, that the Santa Claus's and MIF-monsters are equally spread and it equals out in the end, but let's be honest and just admit that it doesn't exactly always work out that way. Stud B can end up flying with all the MIF-mosters and Stud A can fly with a bunch of Santa Claus types and therefore the NSSs will be drastically different despite the two are perfectly equal. It's all argumentative and is definitely intriguing which is why I said it would make a good thesis type topic for someone doing a mathematics masters.
Here's the rub: none of this will matter when you gt your wings. In a few short years, you'll love what you're flying* and could care less about your NSS. Don't worry so much about scores, worry even less about the magic math behind the scores, and just focus on flying. *if you don't love what you're flying** because your grades caused you to go somewhere else, then you probably should have spent more time studying. **dont worry, you'll love it no matter what platform you get.
Let's give the T-34 credit where it's due. It goes 200 KIAS. That extra 20 knots is easily worth 10 NSS/XP. What the stud forgets is that the MIF-monster and the Santa Clause fly with a bunch of (let's say at least 60) other studs in the process, so they do tend to net out across the board. Over that period, the difference won't be that "drastic."
Yet dudes have been going from T-34s to T-2s to TA-4s and T-45s for years... One could also argue that... ah screw it.... only 37% of you are gonna get jets anyway
And if all of the above fails, and you'd still rather fly something else...kick ass and make it happen later. The bottom line in all cases is that you can only control what you do when you show up to fly. The rest isn't worth worrying about. Don't suck and you might get what you want...even if you have to take the long way there.
@walwr005, When you complete Primary, you'll be able to see your stage NSS for each block of flights. They can give an estimate as you're going through, but the folks you'll be compared to fluctuate. Later on, you can go back and see which blocks you were a rock or a rockstar. If you want to get deeper in the weeds on this, I'd consult your stucon civilian types. In -27 at least, they did the calculation in conjunction with TIMS. Fair warning though, the line between stud wanting to know how their grades are calculated and stud whining about how their grades are calculated is extremely blurry. You might become That Guy pretty quickly, both to instructors/staff and your fellow studs. Do you have a "right" to know? Sure, sort of. I understand where you're coming from, and most of us were there. Just don't waste too many brain cells on it. You'd be better off using that energy somewhere else.
Thanks, and agreed. STUCON has better shit to do than answer my NSS questions, that's why I posted here. Thanks for the info all.
I don't know where you are in the program, but if you're doing 3 bills in the T-6 you're probably fucking something up. The only time I go faster than 200 KIAS is on course rules. However, we DO get to wear a g-suit...so yes, the training MUST be geared towards making jet dudes. I've heard (from many sources, including my onwing) that the T-6 is much easier to fly in some respects, harder in others. I don't think it really matters at this stage in the game whether we fly the T-6 or the Sopwith Camel, my helmet stays on fire dude.
I'm done with it. Are you still in contacts or what? I got that thing up to 240+ every time I flew it after my C4390 (including RIs and most of forms). The reason people argue that it's a more jet-geared trainer is because you wear a g-suit, 02 mask (at all times), and all the other jet gear along with the glass cockpit, increased speeds, HUD, and control setup. Not to mention that it's a well known fact that the primary training is that of a "single-seat mentality". When/if you go fly P3s or Helos you'll understand how little primary stresses CRM and how much of it they expect to do all on your own vice a crew environment. Not to mention the obvious fact that the T6B is simply a cleaned-up, de-rated engine version of the AT6B (attack aircraft) which is designed to be flown by........you guessed it.....jet dudes. So don't sit around drinking the kool-aid. The reason for the comparison and similarities are obvious. The only thing that I've ever heard about the T6 being 'easier' is that you have the glass/FMS cockpit and displays which make RIs and general NAV stuff a little simpler which doesn't matter because for half of RIs the IPs force you to "fly the needles" anyways so the FMS is basically a digital paper-weight at that point. Besides, the point I was trying to make was that comparing the NSS of a T6 stud to that of a T34 stud is never going to be an "all else equal" situation just because the two programs are NOT the same nor was I trying to make this into a T6 vs T34 (or sopwith camel for that matter) dick-measuring thread. I was simply making the point that trying to make sense of the NSS is futile. The best you can hope for is to understand the CTS and understand what is expected of you because I can guarantee you that no one in VT2/3/6 can bust out a calculator and calculate your NSS for you with any mathematical, reasonable explanation of how they got the number.
Actually, the AT-6B is an over-rated, souped up version of the T-6A, which is one major reason why it took so long for the T-6B to actually be available for its primary purpose (training studs). But for the most part, the rest of your post is on track, though I wouldn't say Primary doesn't teach CRM, just a different kind of CRM, as MIDNJAC is alluding to.
Hey man, I learned all about CRM when I was facilitating it as an ANI. Just because YOU don't understand NSS doesn't mean that other people don't/can't/shouldn't. You seem like you get spooled up pretty easy dude. Not a trait I would expect from someone so used to clicking around at 240+...take it easy man.
Well, I have no clue what my NSS is, nor to I care to find out. I'll find out about 2 weeks when I graduate. until then, it's a nice x-country to KSDL (Scottsdale, AZ) this weekend. Over here in 10, there are a lot of students wanting to know what their NSS is, but most of us just compare our cumulative average to each other that will be completing the same week. Then we talk about what everyone wants and where we each fall out in a stack. Of course this is only during "standby" ops, waiting and wishing we we're all flying.
Holy sweet Jesus. In Primary Advanced the FRS Naval Aviation you should just focus on sucking less, one flight at a time, without killing yourself and/or your IP. If you're really freaking out about your NSS, ask STUCON. And to be perfectly honest, it doesn't matter anyway. Everyone knows that jet slots are full for the rest of the fiscal year.
You're right. I should've phrased that a little differently. That's exactly what I was trying to get at with the whole "single-seat mentality" thing. Ok. I didn't say you didn't know about CRM. I said you hadn't seen how it is actively emphasized in Helo-land or P3-land vice the primary-land way of mentioning it as a 5 second briefing item. And the whole point of the 6 pages of this thread has been, essentially, not that I dont understand the NSS but that NO ONE understands it completely so just quit Nuking it and go have fun flying. For god sakes, go open 'er up and see what the T6 can do. It's a great airplane. Spooled up? Neh...240? Not anymore! I do 100kts at 500' AGL while drinking the kool aid and getting my hover-on now.
So if we all get f****ed equally as you put it, and have been going down this road, then why does it matter? NSS works for all its intended purposes. Make sure you knowledge is where it needs to be (Excellent or 5) and make sure you can fly safely and you use your head. Put the aircraft where it needs to go and it all should work out well. Sometimes you get lucky or unlucky and get a On-wing that is not as generous, but most of the time, it is your own doing, not anyone else's.
Just out of curiosity, since the T-6 students are only being compared to the other T-6 students (for calculation of NSS), and T-34 students are only being compared to other T-34 students. . .shouldn't the NSS be relatively equitable? I.E. If T-6 student X is in the top Y percent of his T-6 peers, his NSS will be Z . . .with absolutely no reference to the T-34 students?
I like to say "All turds eventually get flushed, some just take a little longer to sink to the bottom."
