Discussion in 'Military Aviation in General' started by Kow-aka "Spanky, Jan 28, 2012.
This might seem obvious but in a helicopter once you lift off the ground, aren't you flying?
Are you talking Spanky's helos or civilian logging?
Civilian logging - yes as long as you originally moved the aircraft "for the purpose of flight" with the intention of taking off. Just to reposition the aircraft on the airfield or turn an engine - no.
I don't know anyone at an airline that would actually log that in their book though. But the airline does in their systems as it goes toward our pay.
Interesting, because I've come back from a 2.5 or 3.0 and had mx ask me to log an extra .3 on several occasions. Then there are the rare nights that they want me to add an extra .6... I wish I would have kept a seperate logbook if for nothing else than FCF's. Many days I have spent 12+ hours in the aircraft taxiing in/out, doing multiple runs, hovers, etc but only logged 3 or 4 hours of flight time. Oh well.
I'm referring to phrogpilot73's quote from 3710. It said that helo bubbas can start logging their time when they begin taxiing, even if it's a ground taxi.
It just seems odd to me that helicopter ground taxi is considered 'flight time' while taxiing a FW aircraft isn't---I'm curious about the logic behind that. Apologies for the slight threadjack.
No, because if you read the next phrase "ends after airborne flight", that means to count taxiing as flight time, you have to actually go flying.
So, in a wheeled helo if you ground taxi (roll on your wheels) to the hold short and never lift off, then you can't count it for flight time. In a skid helo, they have to hover/air taxi everywhere they go so by their very nature taxiing is flying.
You can have a maintainer start your engines and do a highpower, right? For helicopters, it has to be a qualified pilot that starts the engines. Why? Think about it. Our control surfaces are already moving through the air at a high rate of speed. While we may be "rolling" the spinning stuff above us is still flying. We never change the speed of our rotors blades, just the AOA. So, to compare it with FW - our airfoils are taxiing along at 145 knots.
^^Concur. Additionally, if you don't pull pitch and leave the deck, you didn't really stress the areas of the aircraft the Mx is usually worried about. It would be counter productive to the Mx Dept to log taxi time if you never left the deck.
I'm not going to take a contractor flying job, but can can help out those who are interested (answer questions, forward your resumes to Chief Pilots, etc).
I'm with phrog on this. Forgetting any maintenance limitations or considerations for a moment, if you're waiting to get to the hold short, you're cheating yourself.
Absolutely. I've had this, as well. I was just referring to when there aren't any windows to hit or if you're trying to stretch a bird across multiple events for the day and getting pencil happy before the other crews have logged their flights.
My post was directed towards the guys that want tons of flight time (don't we all?) and then complain because it burns hours too fast for the Ops Plan. The det OpsO on my second cruise would do that. He'd log a 3.2 or 3.3 EVERY TIME he'd go fly on a 3.0 bag. That's 2.1 extra hours he wasn't actually airborne A WEEK. Sure, sometimes you would fly that much, but then he'd come and complain to me because the bird was going into phase faster than what we had planned for in the previous week's planning meeting.
As for FCF's, yeah I'm with you. In Feb of last year, the only thing in my logbook was 2k2 for the month. It was something like 20-ish hours. You and I both know it was way more than that actually in the seat spinning.
HAL, what do you fly, if I may ask?
And as per "your airline", having been in the military for 15 years, I know a few airline folks myself and they most certanily did convert military to civilian time with some conversion... that is what their airline instructed them to.
USGC helos, Navy helos, any military helos. It was just a way to allude to your post.
B-767 for Hawaiian Airlines
As I have said some do military conversions and some don't. But what I was talking about in the post you quoted was logging the times an airline taxis out with the intention of flying but ends up doing a gate turn back because of a mechanical. Legally under the FARs it is logable as the pilot taxied with the intent of flight. I said did not know any airpline pilot that would actually put it in their log book (even though it is legal to). I than said that my airline logs it (in their crew tracking system) as we get paid for it. Our pay is based on flight time and the system logs it as such (legally).
Not all major airlines or major companies allow for flight time conversions. Virtually no small time outfits allow for it because they either don't have a clue or they are on the other end of the spectrum and know exactly what you have been doing and don't need a silly conversion.
I ended up tabulating all of my flight time in Excel by aircraft type (prop, jet, multi-jet) and number of sorties. This let me easily adjust for the conversion that was allowed by particular companies (like FedEx and Southwest as already mentioned) since it is based on a plus 0.2 or 0.3 per sortie (not per hour). NetJets also allows for a conversion. They do not say what it is, they just ask if you used one and what it was. But I still could't get to their 2500 hour requirement. Of course that is all in 2007 prepping to make the jump ... which clearly did not go well with the passage of the age 65 rule and the economy falling apart.
Sure, in hindsight everyone should be keeping a separate civilian log book as HAL Pilot recommends, but there is no HAL Pilot sitting outside the gates of NAS Pensacola to give us that info. Hopefully the internet and sites/threads like this will get the word out.
Not any more - it looks like he made it up to Colorado Springs.
It's there; it just happens to be not out the gate but in the Ready Rooms of anything with a VT in front of the number.
I believe the Haters are more like this in reality:
I'm going to Heli Expo next week to start networking. You should start when you get time. I know there are quite a bit of Helo guys that would like the information.
Who you talking to, Willis?
I've started keeping a personal record of my flight time thanks to the advice of those above. Is there a particular way to log FPT/CPT on the civilian side, or is that just a military thing? The only thing I could find like it in the FAR is PIC/SIC and I know those aren't the same.
From what I can remember, you can log the time as Flight Training Device time, assuming a qualified CFI is present. If you're flying simulated instrument flights, you can also log it as simulated instrument time. FAR 61.1 (b) talks a little about what qualifies as an FTD or a Simulator for that purpose.
Also see FAR 61.4 and 61.51.
The only thing I'm unsure about is whether you need a military instructor, or if the contractors qualify as an instructor. Or, if you need an instructor at the 'computer' in order to log it as simulated instrument time.
I'll defer the rest to those with more experience.
First Pilot Time or Copilot Time...time actually on the controls vs. time just being in the airplane.
Are you asking about PIC v. SIC? Technically, neither would be applicable since you aren't at the controls of an aircraft.
Negative. IPs break the total flight time into FPT and CPT on the EFLIR. Helo guys did it too when I was in charge of the logbooks at my old squadron. I'm not talking about anything to do with a simulator. My question is: Why is there no FPT/CPT block in my civilian logbook like there is in my military logbook? Is it not important in the civilian world? If it is, how do you log it?
In the civilian world, you log it as Dual Received, and some logbooks have a line for FTD (flight training device) which the 'sims' are. If not, you can log it as Dual Received and simulated instrument time for civilian logbook purposes. It works when applying time toward certain civilian ratings, as well as instrument currency, however, it does not apply toward total time.
If you're still interested, I'll shoot you a PM with a scan of my civilian logbook so you can see what it looks like when it's logged.
Unfortunately, that won't work for the majority of time that wlawr is logging at the TRACOM. Most of the TRACOM IPs aren't CFIs, so it's not loggable as "Dual Received."
I was told that you could still log it as Dual Received. The catch is that since the time isn't being flown with an actual CFI, the time can't be counted towards a rating. However, after winging the mil comp rectifies that issue.
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