Discussion in 'Military Aviation in General' started by Kow-aka "Spanky, Jan 28, 2012.
At an airline, it's the contract. Corporate you get to negotiate.
Thanks. So is there any reason from management's POV to prefer guys from the regionals over military guys (like being already familiar with airline ops, or lower salary history/expectations that might come into play in later negotiations), or does management not much care if the guy meets minimum standards?
Getting past the HR "Monolith" is the biggest issue with getting a job on the outside.
In my recent experience, the headhunters were about the only people who seem to somehow be able to get you past HR and in for interviews with minimal waiting.
And yes, as a test, I submitted a resume with my name to a DOD contractor with all my correct stuff. No call
I then submitted it with my GF's name, with a lower GPA, slightly less flight hours, etc, but all the same keywords/quals.
She got a call within 2 days. I still have not heard from them.
Tried it again with my IDENTICAL resume (name only changed) but race changed. Also call back.
It's stupid, but they have to try to hit their mandated "diversity" wickets.
I call it reverse discrimination, but it's legal.
Demographics.....say it again without throwing up......demographics.....
Plus there are more regioanal and corporate pilots available than military, expecially if you weedout the rotorheads.
The defense contractors are sucking on Uncle Sugar's titty so they have more HR hoops to jump thru. The airlines don't.
I'm expecially troubled by that...
It's got my head xpinning. (I made a pun at the same time!)
Kind of funny you saying that seeing as you work for the airline that used to be commonly known as "Yo-nited" and which hired many extremely low time minorites and women in response to a lawsuit.
This is why I work in a non PC industry.
I told a worker to stop being such a fucking pussy assed fag last week.
And I'm not in any kind of trouble.
Having recently had the great pleasure of interviewing and getting hired for a civilian helicopter job I was not told of any acceptable hour adjustment. Nor did I try to use one. Instead, I simply explained that my hours reflected no adjustment and was ready to defend their 'quality' (i.e. none built just flying for the sake of building hours).
I'll start another thread at some point outlining what I did and my experiences with getting hired. It basically comes down to not being a douche, showing interest (showing up in person to ask the chief pilot how to break into the industry seemed to work well for me), and readily admitting there are a lot of other guys out there on civvie street with more experience doing whatever it is you're getting hired to do. A lot of us military-types seem to think we're the only show in town but must realize that while we meet qualifications any chief pilot is going to have more resumes exceeding min quals with time spent doing the exact same work sought (just at another company) than positions. It is up to the individual applicant to then stand out. Fortunately for me the guy I met with liked my personality and I got an offer while just visiting to gain professional pointers. Strikingly, this is how I've gotten every job I've ever wanted to have.
I'm by no means an old salt on civvie street and don't even start my new job until mid-March so I don't want to talk out my ass but am certainly willing to outline how my route to civvie street helos panned out. There was also an interview where I was flat-out told by the chief pilot he'd hire civvie over military any chance he got (made me wonder why I was invited to OR for it).
Which makes me want to start telling gay jokes.....butt fuck it....
Please do. I was thinking of starting a helo pilot resource thread in the Transition Forum. I know there's lots of sites out there, but figured a link farm here might simplify things.
I was gonna say something mean but refrained, seeing how my this was my original question thread.
Something along the lines of Plopters (platform, not the pilots) being the transvestites of aviation?
That might of been the case during a brief amount of time that United was under an EOC injunction in the 80s. The last round of hiring was based on qualifications and during the 1995-2001 time frame the qualifications were very high. I can honestly say that I have never flown with someone hired in that time frame that got hired because of "demographics".
In my new hire class of 16, 14 were military and of the other 2 one was a 14 year TWA guy and the other was a 17 year USair former Piedmont. Ten out of the 14 were fighter guys.
So what I'm saying is that when United, Delta, and American start to hire in the 2013 time frame, there is going to be run on the military trained guys. The reason for this is two fold; number one, there are not that many of you, number two, hiring out of the regionals will be disruptive to the operation. With the new flight time rules it will be hard to find qualified people to fill their (regionals) seats. The FAA issued less than 400 ATPs last year.
The stars are aligning for the guys who are getting out in the next few years that want to fly for the airlines.
Little late to this thread; But I agree with everything Hal has said. Based on my experience, he is spot on with his facts and speculations. YMMV
Only 400 ATPs? I know five of them, and three of them have no plans to use them. Work wants me to get mine(no FAR requirement but insurance wants it) but I want them to pay for it, or at least paid time off if I use GI Bill.
I can't go to a major and I refuse to fly for what regionals pay.
Will be interesting when they start to hire in earnest.
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I don't think there is going to be a run on military guys. I think military guys will have a better chance because everyone will have a better chance. Military guys with the qualifications will be able to skip the regionals because they have the qualifications, not because they are military.
Unless the regional is actually owned by the major (and American Eagle is the only one I can think of), the majors do not care what their hiring does to a regional. They will hire who they want. It will be up to the regional to replensish its own ranks. This will have no affect on who gets hired by a major and who doesn't.
There are also less and less former military guys in the majors, and less of them are in positions that are involved in hiring. Therefore the military background doesn't have the significance it used to. It's still a leg up and a possible way to skip the regionals, but not like the old days.
There will be more hiring in the next few years because retirements will start kicking in again as the age 65 delay ends and because of the new flight time rules. Both will be affected by the new rules, the majors will be affected by the retirements too. But hiring to the majors will in no way be guaranteed just because you were a military pilot. Pilots coming from civilian backgrounds with the same or better qulifications will be just as competative.
So the bottomline is to have the best qualifications possible and to start networking. Networking is the big advantage military guys have. We keep track of each other and we help each other. Don't wait until you have an interview to contact your airline buds - do it now and do it often. If nothing else, recommendations are added to HR's computerized scoring and maybe the thing that brings you application to the top for the interview call. Having recommendations makes the interviewers more inclined to take a chance on you, etc. In some cases, recommendations are still the way to by-pass the HR process and get the interview.
I can only speak facts about my current employer so this is just my perspective. Almost all of the pilots in mgt are former military. Almost all of the pilots in our training center are former military. 75 to 80 % of the guys I fly with on the line are former military. I am former military. Those are the demographics as I see them on a daily basis.
Hal is right about being able to bypass the regionals and the importance of networking. You would not believe how much everyone is looking forward to seeing new hires coming on board.
So Gents, trying to converge the divergence of verbiage in regards to MY original question~
*If this is the definition:
§ 1.1 Definitions:
Flight time means: (1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing
*And... you are flying a wheeled helicopter that taxis out for take off (hover, rolling, whatever)~ If you are logging as per the military convention, you are not getting to include that time.
*So...are we shortchanging time in the HELO world(hint... NOT asking regional, semi-finals, majors, etc) when we are competing for civilian jobs vs. a civilian pilot that DOES log as per the above definition and *'ed (attempted) explanation?
And therefore, what is a boy to do when tabulating military hours for said HELO jobs?
I know this doesn't help you, but if you're worried about the taxi time in a helo, you probably logged it wrong. For every time you haven't logged the taxi time to the pad/hold short, how much other times did you fly a 2.9 and just log a 3.0 (forgetting the TRACOM, since hours/X is a bigger deal there).
I've done pretty much nothing but maintenance throughout my career, so I'm sensitive to the Ops team that likes to fat-pencil time and then complains about how birds have hit their specials/phase windows earlier than what had been planned. But still, how much taxiing do you do in a helo (serious question)?
.2 to .3 per sortie....
Mayport 03-07 timeframe..
About 2 minutes to get to taxiway and be cleared.
About 2 minutes to the fuel pits
???? Waiting in line
2 minutes back to line.
So a solid .1-.3
If you guys haven't been logging your taxi time, you're wrong.
So if y'all ground taxi out to the hold short, sit there for 0.5, and for whatever reason cnx the flight and taxi back, y'all can log that as flight time? Even though you've never left the ground?
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