MCMAP Mandatory Training Mega Thread

Mcmap

Good Evening - Are all aviators REQUIRED to be gray belts now, like all grunts are required to be Green? Does is really mean anything if you don't have your grey belt? Or are they just trying to get us to show up for this stuff?

Depends on your interpretation of "combat arms." Col. Shusko (phrog pilot) thought so, and so does MATSG-22, as they are getting their IP's spun up on grey.

In answer to your question- marine aviators are required to become gray belts. Student Naval Aviators are exempt from getting their qualification while they are in training, just like rifle and pistol qualification. You will, however need to get your gray belt when you are done training, and possibly in between training times when you are in the pool. I hope that helps.

We haven't heard that yet. And I don't think it would be a good idea, unless the Commandant wants a bunch of broken ass aviators not flying his airplanes. It's understandable if the MATSGs want to require it for Lieutenants fresh out of TBS. But, if they push that initiative to the fleet there's going to be a lot of gentlemen's grey belt courses being run around the wing. I'll probably do my grey belt training during the same five minutes I run the "combat fitness test."

Grey belt= learning enough to get yourself hurt.

I know someone who broke their collar bone doing Semper Fu while in the API pool...

The MCMAP program, like every other Marine Corps program, was designed for the infantry. The average Captain or Major in the air wing cannot compete physically with their counterpart across the river. I'm not saying the program should be scrapped. I just want nobody to flip their shit when the program is abbreviated for the sake of preserving our forces.

For example, if an infantry company commander is injured while receiving a brutal vertical hammer fist blow to the collar bone, no big deal. The same can be said of nearly any non-pilot MOS. That single incident will not affect that infantry company's readiness or training at all. If a new V-22 squadron loses one of its three NSI's for a similar or lesser injury, the effects will be felt for months to follow.

I respect your idealist perspective on the MCMAP program. The aviation community needs that to an extent. But, in most instances, the cost-benefit analysis does not support the practice of irreplaceable aviators beating on each other for a week straight in an effort to receive the next color ninja belt.

As has been pointed out, it's freakin' grey belt training! We're not talking about putting people through the MAIT program where Col. Shusko personally beats the living shit out of you (That guy is freakin' hard, BTW). Sure, there's the risk of people getting concussions and injuring ACLs, but that's just a reality of any physical training. The question of pilots NEEDING a grey belt comes probably to two things that I can think of. First is the warrior mindset. It may be a punchline for some people around here, but good groundfighting is a way to breed the seriously aggressive mindset that every Marine should have. Second, and I'm getting this directly out of Col. Shusko's mouth, your belt level is now going to be a distractor item on your Fitrep. So if you're a Captain and you still have just a tan belt, all things being equal, you're kinda behind the rest of the Marine Corps as far as the board can see.

I personally do not look forward to any MCMAP training, but I plan to be a grey belt(whipped on by The MACE, so I know it wasn't a gentlemens course) before I leave The BS.

That is unfortunate. Theres no reason that someone in the air wing shouldn't possess the same physical prowess that someone who is not in the air wing possesses. That attitude and reality is why I constantly receive crap from all the ground guys. Every Marine Officer should take responsibility for their own physical development - You shouldn't be excused because you have the best job. :icon_wink

To get back on point, as has been echoed a number of times thus far, its only gray belt training. I picked mine up training with a green belt instructor Saturday mornings in my TBS platoon a couple of months ago. Sure, you might get a few bruises, tough. Suck it up. In my opinion everyone should be required to be have a green belt.

And I thought this thread was going to be a about a new, educational happy meal prize.

I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind on the internet. But I'll at least try.

You're both 2ndLt's fresh out of TBS in presumably great shape. Congratulations! You have no idea what a fleet squadron is like. Training that causes "a few bruises" on one of your counterparts has a higher probability of seriously breaking one of mine. I've seen it.

You speak of injuries and "the risk of people getting concussions and injuring ACLs" like it's nothing. Sure, if a 2ndLt tears an ACL, it's not going to affect anyone except that 2ndLt. If a single pilot in a squadron has a similar injury it will affect the entire squadron to some extent. In my community, if a major player with all the quals is injured (generally a pilot who is older and further removed from the TBS fairytale world of daily PT, MCMAP, and sand table exercises), everyone in the community will be affected. If that squadron is working up or about to deploy, it's now jumping through it's ass to find or make a qualified replacement when the focus should be elsewhere.

This is a good discussion, but you're both a little outside your lane. TBS is good at showing the ideal side of the Marine Corps, where everyone is a rifle platoon commander and less than a 275 PFT is considered bad. That is your world. It is all you know. The reality is there are many more variables in the aviation community than you're considering when you formulate your arguments.

Good discussion. Coincidentally, the powers that be are starting a MAI course this coming week in Camp Funtime. Everyone who wants can advance a belt and become an instructor for that level. I'm excited about the prospect, but it is going to be a beatdown. I'm not worried about getting seriously hurt, but if I do, I have plenty of time til I see a cockpit anyway. This is a great opportunity, especially for officers since most can't take the time to go to a three week course to get their instructor tab.
I think all Marines should strive to advance in MCMAP even with the threat of injuries. It gets us back to more primitive fighting....away from LGBs and NVGs. It gets us outside being physical, not staring at a computer screen. And it reminds us of what our job comes down to.....

I hope that I'm not overstepping any boundaries in this discussion, that was not my intention, nor did I mean any disrespect. I also concede that I don't have an informed view of what life in the Wing is like nor did I take into account the added "durability" that youth provides.

I only sought to put forth my view that Marine Officers are Marine Officers, and should generally be held to the same standard. I do, however, realize that is not how it works.

And I am currently in the worst shape in the past several years of my life. They don't call it The Body Softener for nothing! In between the mandatory hikes, the 70, 80, and 100+ hr work weeks, and week-long field exercises, its difficult to find the time and energy to maintain your fitness.

Yes, I am a 2ndLt, but I've been around this gun club for a little while. I know how and why things work in the fleet. And on the air wing side no less so please don't pigeon-hole me.

I understand the second and third order effects you're speaking of, and I understand your convictions. However, any unit (aviation, comm, infantry, ANY unit) that has its combat readiness or effectiveness so seriously compromised by the loss of one Marine's presence is either poorly going about business or is systemically flawed. It sounds like a systemic flaw that is breeding a mindset of TRA rather than building a well rounded combat ready unit with a well rounded officer corps.

Thanks. I was kinda expecting someone would pull the BS flag. I'm fine with that. I just get a little irrational sometimes when assumptions are made about me.

Still though, the general points of my next paragraph still hold merit regardless of my level of experience. It is a valid position that I don't think you can force me off of.

There have been no MARADMIN's or ALMAR's out that require you to be anything more than a tan belt.

break break

For those of you that might think having a Gray or higher belt will get you promoted to Major, stop kidding yourself.

For those of you idealists in TBS that have these grand plans of squadron or shop PT or MCMAP every morning or evening because you want your Marines to be as "hard" as the grunts, try it when you get to your first fleet sqd and let me know how well that works out for you ...

MCMAP, like flying, is a perishable skill ... if you don't practice it often, you’re gonna suck at it. You kungfu warriors do it up all you want though, when you break something and get DQ’d from flying, again, let me know how that goes for you …

I will throw this out ... me and "Col Angus" differ in opinions on pilots getting hurt because of MCMAP ... he sees a dude with quals out of the fight and hurting the sqd ... I see it as the dude was a dumbass and I'll be happy to take his flighttime ...

S/F

I read your credentials and figured you'd throw them around soon enough. You probably left the fleet as a Sgt and were promoted in MECEP. Your interaction with officers was probably at the lowest level (I'm assuming just company grade but I could be wrong, I have no idea what you did). But, I doubt you interacted with the volume of senior officers as an enlisted Marine as you will as a pilot. I don't want to pigeon-hole you, but I don't know if you're grasping the big picture.

I'll refer to the V-22 community because it's what I'm most familiar with. Each squadron has approximately 26-30 officers at any given time. Sometimes more, sometimes less. There are 2-5 LtCols, 8-10 Majors, 8-12 Captains and a few 1stLts. Most of the big quals (NSI, LATI, Flight Leadership, etc, Natops/Instrument Instructor) are held by the field grade and a few senior Captains. The pilots with those qualifications are the only people who can train the unqualified pilots in those various categories (only an NSI can give an initial goggle X or requalify a previously designated pilot, only a LAT instructor can teach LAT), or lead a flight of multiple aircraft. It takes a nearly herculean effort to create an NSI. It requires a considerable amount of external support, including an instructor from MAWTS in Yuma. There are only a few NSIs.

Resultantly the pilots with the quals are constantly flying, there's never enough of them, other squadrons always need to borrow them, etc etc. In addition to being so valuable in the aircraft and scarce around the community, these pilots are also running the squadrons. They are the COs, XOs, OPSOs, AMOs and so on. They are generally in their 30s and lower 40s. Without them in the fight, the squadrons "combat readiness or effectiveness" is compromised. That's how a squadron works. I can assure you that my squadron is not poorly going about business. We are not built around any single person, and everyone is in some respects replaceable. But we train and work up with the people we deploy with. Generally we do this for a few months and up to a year. We develop a battle rhythm and learn to work and fly together. It's what makes us successful. That's just the way it is. And if you think the system is flawed, you may seriously want to think about your chosen line of work before you get too far into it.

Our mindset isn't one of total risk avoidance. We simply aim to mitigate the unnecessary risks, like the silly pseudo-martial arts you guys are all hung up on, so we can more effectively train on and employ our aircraft in combat. Bottom line: Superfluous martial arts training is unnecessary for pilots. A baseline course like the tan-belt training at TBS is fine, but anything additional and mandatory is not. We are all Marines. We went through the same training as you did. Then we became pilots. Our mission has evolved. We no longer worry about hammer-fisting a Centralian in the Quantico highlands. Instead, we train to superimpose our unique set of skills over a weapon system and employ that weapon system against the enemy. MCMAP is potentially a hindrance to our effectiveness.

I agree - MCMAP is tried and true at breaking people off and getting them hurt. I ask the question because I'm at NAS Whiting Field and I get this Marine talking to us about captains/ majors needing to do it to fill some qual they need. So, they walk around asking LT.s to do it because they need slots to fill. Just wondering if I need the check in the box or not even worth the time - otherwise I don't feel remotely bad about keeping a tan.

Great posts, gentlemen. Although I do cling to the idea of redundancy in skill sets in every unit, I understand your positions fully. After all, I am still a tan belt after I got mine in early 2002. At the risk of being considered an arrogant, no nothing punk, I was able to stimulate some good posts.

I'll still be getting my grey belt before heading to P-Cola just in case that directive does come out.

Here's the relevant ALMAR:
http://www.marines.mil/news/messages/Pages/2007/MARINECORPSMARTIALARTSPROGRAM(MCMAP)UPDATE.aspx

I don't know if there is an official definition of "combat arms" anywhere, but according to the MOS descriptions on the TBS website, 7599 and 7580 are not combat arms.

I think one of the big reasons they are pushing this is because in their mind, MCMAP is only 1/3 beating each other up, and 2/3 mental discipline and character discipline. I think the mental/character parts are just an afterthought, but what do I know?