IW/IW vs INTEL

[phrogpilot73]

Still support, just like you are.......

That's right, I am. Damn proud of it. As a matter of fact, my service is very good at understanding that distinction. You see - we look at it this way, either you're Infantry, or you're support. That tells me that the entire United States Navy (save the SEALs) are support.

 

[Flash]

That's right, I am. Damn proud of it. As a matter of fact, my service is very good at understanding that distinction. You see - we look at it this way, either you're Infantry, or you're support. That tells me that the entire United States Navy (save the SEALs) are support.

As I already noted......

......and when you think about it everything in the military is support, revolving around supporting the infantrymen on the ground shooting bad guys. Probably the biggest thing I admire about the Marines is that they get that better than any other service.

 

[snake020]

Can't we all just agree that we, the Army, Navy, and Marine Corps, who wear the military uniform support the extended political will of Congress and the President?

 

[phrogpilot73]

As I already noted......

-1 for reading comprehension... That'll teach me to try and read AW and watch "We are Marshall" at the same time...

My point was that warfare shifts throughout the ages. I think that war is shifting towards the cyber/information age. There will come a time where the support role becomes the leading role, because more political/strategic gains can be made - with less loss of life. Again, 99.9% of the time they're support.

 

[Flash]

Can't we all just agree that we, the Army, Navy, and Marine Corps, who wear the military uniform are support the extended political will of Congress and the President?

Shut up Air Force reject!

 

[Arkad]

Flash - You sound both brilliant and open minded?? It is interesting when folks at the Flag deck both understand and appreciate the Information WARFARE mission area (which elements are the CNO's top concern), while JOs are constraining themselves to the warfare disciplines we read about in history class. Successful business cultures have the juniors providing the innovative ideas and selling them to their seniors. You, on the other hand, find a way to turn the tables. I find it interesting that you try so hard to separate yourself from your IW brethren. Truth is you are one of us (and may soon have no choice as the GROWLER forces you to think lat transfer). When you really think about it, there is not much difference from what you do in the backseat than what we do. Being a warfighter is more of a mindset than anything else and a healthy one at that. Back to my kicking analogy, is Vinatieri an offensive weapon or merely a member of the supporting cast? No matter how you choose to answer, there is no denying he is a valued member of the team and is the supported instrument of choice in the right situation. Open your mind, there is room for us at the table and senior leadership continues to make more chairs available to us (demand signal for our skill set continues to rise even when the Navy is decreasing overall numbers). I have no doubt you are a great asset to both your community and the Navy, but please don't deny all of us the potential you might realize by letting go of your ego and acknowledging that other perspectives are equally (or better) compelling.

 

[HH-60H]

Flash - You sound both brilliant and open minded?? It is interesting when folks at the Flag deck both understand and appreciate the Information WARFARE mission area (which elements are the CNO's top concern), while JOs are constraining themselves to the warfare disciplines we read about in history class. Successful business cultures have the juniors providing the innovative ideas and selling them to their seniors. You, on the other hand, find a way to turn the tables. I find it interesting that you try so hard to separate yourself from your IW brethren. Truth is you are one of us (and may soon have no choice as the GROWLER forces you to think lat transfer). When you really think about it, there is not much difference from what you do in the backseat than what we do. Being a warfighter is more of a mindset than anything else and a healthy one at that. Back to my kicking analogy, is Vinatieri an offensive weapon or merely a member of the supporting cast? No matter how you choose to answer, there is no denying he is a valued member of the team and is the supported instrument of choice in the right situation. Open your mind, there is room for us at the table and senior leadership continues to make more chairs available to us (demand signal for our skill set continues to rise even when the Navy is decreasing overall numbers). I have no doubt you are a great asset to both your community and the Navy, but please don't deny all of us the potential you might realize by letting go of your ego and acknowledging that other perspectives are equally (or better) compelling.

There you go with the assumptions again, Flash isn't AD anymore.

 

[Arkad]

Desired Majors

Traditionally, we have emphasized technical undergrad degrees and favored CS, Physics, Math and Engineering over others. As the mission area has grown to include all of IO vice SIGINT, degrees of value also include Regional Studies, Poli Sci, Info Tech and others. Like the rest of the Navy we have come to value Language and Culture expertise within our wardroom (been doing that in the enlisted ranks since the beginning), though we have yet to truly develop requirements for those skill sets.

Bottom line: Legacy thinkers (and we still have plenty) will answer this by saying you must have an engineering degree (or a BS vice BA in a "softer" major) to even be considered. Truth is we need a mix if a single wardroom is to lead the charge in both PSYOP and SIGINT (not to mention the other varied IW mission areas).

 

[SemperGumbi]

Is a cop who arrests a terrorist in New York a warfighter?

 

[GroundPounder]

Is a cop who arrests a terrorist in New York a warfighter?

I would think that it would depend on how much he had to fight him to get the cuffs on.

 

[Flash]

Flash - You sound both brilliant and open minded?? It is interesting when folks at the Flag deck both understand and appreciate the Information WARFARE mission area........I find it interesting that you try so hard to separate yourself from your IW brethren. Truth is you are one of us (and may soon have no choice as the GROWLER forces you to think lat transfer). When you really think about it, there is not much difference from what you do in the backseat than what we do. Being a warfighter is more of a mindset than anything else and a healthy one at that........Open your mind, there is room for us at the table and senior leadership continues to make more chairs available to us........I have no doubt you are a great asset to both your community and the Navy, but please don't deny all of us the potential you might realize by letting go of your ego and acknowledging that other perspectives are equally (or better) compelling.

It is nice that you are so passionate about your community, but I dont' think you are getting my point. When you call what you do 'warfighting' or call yourselves 'warfighters' it just opens you up to mockery and ridicule from people who actually do the fighting. I think my example with the USAF space rangers is a good one, no one gives them any more respect now that they have a shiny new pair of wings or that they wear flight suits. People jsut laugh at them.

This is not to say that your community does good work and is part of the larger fight, but don't let your ego get in the way. Call what you do whatever you want, my opinion really ain't going to matter, but don't be surprised when those other people look at you funny when you start talking about your 'warfighting' experience. I never heard that term used to describe what I did in the Navy, we just did our jobs and were happy with it.

No matter what you call it, this:

....will never equal this:

...or even this:

 

[Arkad]

I don’t recall stating anything that would lead anyone to believe there is equality amongst those depicted in your pictures (great job, BTW) with regard to the sacrifices or operational contributions of those depicted (though Cartman and company were likely SUPPORTING those in the other pics with targeting data or at the very least threat warning). I appreciate the debate and will leave you with the following quote from our CNO (Testimony to Congress in DEC 2007)…

"Cutting edge technology is part of the Navy’s culture and identity, yet the technology environment has challenged our edge. The technology gap is closing; however, the costs associated are increasing. I intend to wisely invest in our research and development in order to maximize the return on investment. Unmanned systems, cyberwarfare, ballistic missile defense, anti-submarine warfare and decision superiority are specific areas that could provide significant advances in the future."

 

[eaw75]

...don't be surprised when those other people look at you funny when you start talking about your 'warfighting' experience.

Actually there are quite a few IW Officers that are true combat veterans, especially those that have been placed with SpecWar (and a few other random guys placed at the RCT/BCT level) that have been assigned to participate in "tribal engagements". I know a couple of them personally, and they are walking around with the CAR's to prove it.

But they would laugh at anyone that referred to them as a "warfighter". That term is reserved for the men and women that do this...

... everyday.

 

[lmnop]

... they are walking around with the CAR's to prove it.

so are these guys:

 

[phrogpilot73]

so are these guys:

I would say that their CARs are the GAYEST upon GAY CARs I've ever heard of (and mine is pretty gay - I slept through the fire fight that caused us to get it). We did a bi-lateral exercise with Jordan my last deployment, and even the Jordanians thought it was funny.